HACKER Q&A
📣 nikasakana

Any good essays/books/advice about software sales?


I'm a software engineer trying to build an agency, would love to hear anything(literally) about how can an engineer learn to generate leads and convert them. Thanks!


  👤 Terretta Accepted Answer ✓
Believe it or not, for "selling software":

Selling Microsoft - https://www.amazon.com/Selling-Microsoft-Secrets-Successful-...

The fundamentals of software sales haven't changed much since this. While B2C SaaS is different, the B2B platform world is still much as described in this book, and more importantly, the buyers are still the people who were buying when this book was published.

While selling today should have changed, many of the enterprise procurement processes that were being set up as this was published are still the same. That makes this an excellent foundation for understanding how to change it up.

That said, you said building an agency ... so do you mean selling software, or selling the ability to deliver solutions that a company can't get off the shelf?

That's quite different.


👤 Optimal_Persona
As someone who has made lots of purchasing decisions for software (ERPs, Electronic Health Records, productivity tools) at places I've worked over the last 18 years:

I don't want to talk to salespeople, only product designers, developers, executives, and support staff. They are the people who make the stuff and/or are left holding the bag for the product when the salesperson is jetting off to their next meeting.

Same goes with service contracts for leased business equipment (copiers, postage machines, alarm/security systems) - let me talk to the "support" staff who don't read their own technical bulletins BEFORE I sign so I can decide not to go with a vendor who "requires" full admin rights to my server to manage their copiers.

This doesn't necessarily scale past small-mid size businesses (mine have been up to $20ARR and ~150 people). The occasions I've talked only with sales, there have been broken promises, missed deadlines, and a big mismatch between what we were sold and what we got.


👤 leetrout
Previous thread "I'm an engineer that needs to sell my services. Any good books on sales?"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39316653

From that posting this comment seems useful:

The Secrets of Consulting: A Guide to Giving and Getting Advice Successfully by Gerald Weinberg

https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Consulting-Giving-Getting-Suc...


👤 markhneedham
You might like Michael Drogalis' blog - https://substack.com/@michaeldrogalis

He's a software engineer who's been building his business in the open for the last year and is sharing what he learns along the way.


👤 gwbas1c
Crossing the Chasm: Geoffrey A. Moore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm

Basically, there's a lot more to sales than just "generate leads." You need to pick a "right-sized" market, tailor the product to the market (but not too much, so you can go after other markets,) and then as you grow, move to bigger markets.

The markets you go after when your company is small are very different than when your company is established. Furthermore, small differences in your product are critical: A tiny feature or option might be critical in a tiny niche that you need to get started; but a completely different feature or option is needed when you're able to target a larger audience.


👤 telaandrews2
Founding Sales is a great book for non sales people who need to learn sales for their own startup / business. Sounds like this is what you're after. Free to read, too. https://www.foundingsales.com/

👤 jll29
The best book on selling complex items like software that I have ever known, I got from the best salesperson I ever met: the book is

  Neil Rackham: Spin Selling

👤 notpushkin
Not about sales, but if you haven’t yet, try Getting Real by 37signals (Basecamp, HEY).

It’s for anybody working on software, whether building a SaaS or working for a client or anything in between. A ton of solid advice on project management, client relationships, interface design, code and more.

Free to read online (and a free PDF): https://basecamp.com/books/getting-real


👤 perpil
The Mom Test teaches you how to ask the right questions to make sure potential customers actually have a need for and will pay for what you are building vs. lying to be polite. The Mom Test: How to talk to customers & learn if your business is a good idea when everyone is lying to you https://a.co/d/8rxZlJ7

👤 bigbossman
Get Founding Sales by Pete Kazanjy (https://www.foundingsales.com/). It's written by a tech founder for founders, and he also runs some popular events and forums for the startup community.


👤 Crazyontap
I recently read "Sell or Be Sold" by Grant Cardone. While the author might come off as a bit scammy, the book itself offers valuable insights. The key takeaway for me was the importance of genuinely believing in what you're selling. You need to be convinced that your product or service is the best possible solution for your customer, whether it's in terms of value for money, ease of use, or any other criteria. By selling it, you're actually improving their life.

As a programmer, I found this perspective particularly enlightening. It taught me that effective selling isn't just about persuasion; it's about conviction and truly understanding the value of what you're offering.


👤 hilux
Just so you know, there are many different types of sales. When I saw your header, I thought you meant "B2B (product) software sales." Many of the responses are about that.

But product companies are very different from agencies (i.e. consulting/services companies), which it sounds like you're trying to do.

A great place to start is Hubspot.com. Just do some of their courses. AND also try to talk to salespeople, and "agency people" in real life. It's a completely different mindset - not something you can learn intellectually; you have to let it soak in over time.

One great way is to try to sell anything in real life. You'll learn so much more from that than from a book.


👤 Joel_Mckay
It is like any other publishing business, and one inevitably becomes educated in global Copyright and Trademark policy by legal staff.

People only make money reselling the same software/services, and the authoring process is _always_ a loss of time/money (only fools try to optimize fixed engineering/development labor costs)... Note, Microsoft has resold the same product for 30 years, and no one seems to notice. Apple is a pyramid power structure (zero vertical movement for most engineers), so without Steve Jobs on the chair it too stagnates into its own predictable narrow market sector.

The joke in the industry is "if you succeed in your career, than you will inevitably end up in Marketing." You need to observe the four types of customer segmentation up close (and why you should ignore 3/4 types.) I recommend going to a few trade-shows in your area, and listen closely to sales pitches (think about how they make sales revenue, as it is usually not apparent at first.)

Study the SAP/Oracle sales model, as they extract a phenomenal amount of revenue from traditionally difficult markets.

"Don't compete to be at the bottom", as there are people that will bankrupt themselves irrationally gambling on things they plagiarized. Pick a niche product/service difficult to clone, and develop a close relationship with large customers. Ask "how can you add unique value for your users", and don't fall into the IT service industry role for one customer.

Never expose >14% of your annual revenue to any one project/person/customer, or you may as well just go directly to a casino.

Have a tax strategy (talk with local corporate accountants before you start), and also attend/chat AMCHAM webinars because they are great if you do business in the US.

Many vaporware firms are no different than the Crazy Eddie story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eddie

YMMV, I have risk-aversion biases given the journeys differ for most. =3


👤 mannyv
Traction. It's about sales channels.

Are you selling a solution? Solution selling talks about complex sales.

I lost my old book, but this one looks good: mastering technical sales.

The entire sales process is pretty interesting. There was a book on the buyer mindset that i can't find. But essentially there's the dream period and the fear period, and one of sales' jobs is to move the customer psychologically from the "everything will be great" past the "omg how is this going to work" to signing.


👤 geraldzanklks
Happy to help here. Selling is such an important part of any business. I have helped Bitmovin (YC15) to scale over $20 Mio in ARR.

Here are the learnings out of this and how to do sales: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D366FMV5/



👤 armanboyaci
https://www.amazon.com/Solution-Selling-Fieldbook-Practical-...

If you are planning to build enterprise software solutions then I highly recommend this book. It contains very helpfull checklists and templates.


👤 tptacek
Are you trying to sell a product or build a services business? Very different things! I have some books I like on software sales, but not for services businesses; most of the successful services businesses I'm familiar with didn't include a salesperson in their founding team.

👤 charles_taylor
If you're selling to developers, you should know the way they discover, compare, and buy software is totally different than how 'traditional' buyers make their purchase decisions. They typically rely on strong technical documentation, peer reviews, and hands-on testing through self-serve demos before advocating internally for adoption. I've bookmarked this this page, The Developer Marketing Funnel: https://playbooks.hypergrowthpartners.com/p/the-developer-ma...

👤 nateburke
Here is a nice history of selling software: https://wtfeconomy.com/enterprise-software-death-and-transfi...

👤 grvdrm
Had sales folks throw two books my way:

1. Customer Centric Selling

https://books.google.com/books/about/CustomerCentric_Selling...

2. Never Split The Difference (from buyer angle, but still good)

https://www.blackswanltd.com/never-split-the-difference


👤 _bramses
Developer Hegemony [1] will help your thinking on how to price software in a world that traditionally rewards business people, as well as being pretty emotionally revealing about the trade we’re involved in.

[1] - https://books.google.com/books/about/Developer_Hegemony.html...


👤 jasonsgt
I'm the owner of Procufly.com and we sell software. I always try to get straight to the point and avoid sales pitches and slides.

Also for anyone interested, we are looking to expand our software portfolio so if you have a solution we would be happy to have a chat! Our main client base is in the Fintech, Gaming and Investment industries.


👤 Closi
I think being an agency is different to selling software - I work for a consultancy and do sales and the process is:

1. Get a lead and qualify it. Red flags for qualification are small company size, weird location which isn't in your geography (e.g. middle east), person enquiring is not sufficiently senior in the organisation etc.

2. Understand the customer's problem better than anyone else. This includes visiting them, sitting down in person, clearly stating their problem on some slides so they know you understand it. If you are the only person to visit the customer in person, you will probably win the lead.

3. Describe how you plan to solve the customer's problem, and demonstrate how you have relevant experience and how this won't be a challenge. This isn't an exciting project for you - you want to work together but this is an easy problem that you have solved a hundred times before and you can solve it with confidence.

4. Be flexible in the sales process - ask the customer to help you tweak the proposal until it's exactly what they want.

5. Tailor the solution to the size of the business - don't sell a giant over-engineered solution to their problem if they are tiny, find a way to solve it with no frills or quick hacks. On the flipside, don't sell a no-frill's solution to a giant enterprise, they will want to believe they are getting something suitably engineered. Also tailor the sales process - if you are winning a massive contract you put in more effort than a tiny contract (and if sufficiently small, your proposal can just be an email back).

6. Give a clear and reasonable commercial model that fits in-line with the customer's expectations. If it doesn't fit with their expectations, adjust the scope and price (don't significantly adjust price without adjusting scope - it's bad for relationships)

7. Be super flexible when closing the deal. You are a small agency, your benefit is you can do things that bigger agencies can't. Don't endlessly argue over meaningless contract terms - just make sure they pay your first invoice which should 'cover your ass' until the next invoice, and work from there.

The main difference in agency selling compared to standard software selling is that it is high-engagement and high-effort. If you spend 5 days winning 20 days of work, you are probably doing pretty well.

Also, the big mantra is "doing is selling" - doing a good job on one project will lead to both more work from the same client, and recommendations which brings in even more. Everyone employed at a consultancy/agency is responsible for selling, some directly, others indirectly by making sure they do a great job. The company doesn't exist without winning projects!



👤 dools
It might be a good idea to get some training or coaching. I learned Sandler but there are probably others. There is a book that’s an intro to the system called You Can’t Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar

👤 kareemm
Dan Hebert does exactly this in his coaching and community business: https://www.salesmvplab.com/

👤 richardw
Small channel but Craig Hewitt is legit: https://www.youtube.com/@thecraighewitt

👤 quintes
Do you know what you’re gonna build, or is the agency just building to client spec?

Who’s the client?

How will you find them? Where are they? How will you communicate with them? How will you get them to use your agency?

That’s the trick

Edit: spelling


👤 varunjain99
I think more than software sales it's useful to learn about "sales" and "persuasion".

I've found Robert Cialdini's Influence to be a great read!


👤 davisr
Have you used much software yourself? If you know the difference between good and bad software (ahem, Electron-based apps are inherently bad software), then you have everything within you to write good software.

The principles of selling software successfully are thus:

* Charge a low price. A low price gets many customers, and a high price gets fewer, but the money earned equals about the same. Better to have more customers, because that's more eyeballs and mouths seeing and talking about it.

* Make the software available for as many platforms as possible, with GNU/Linux being a first-class citizen. Although most of your customers will use macOS and Windows, having GNU/Linux support signals robustness and longevity, earning trust.

* Use a generous license. Best to AGPLv3+ -- competitors can't beat it. If others share your program gratis, it just leads to even more official customers. Any changes can be reincorporated into the official software, so the first-mover advantage is everything.

* The software must be GOOD. It's got to save people time in their otherwise busy lives, and it has to be robust -- it has to work every time. The software has to know when things won't work, and fail gracefully. This is what sets hobby-ware apart from professional-ware.

* Update the software regularly, and keep in contact with customers in a visible public place -- even if it's just a static, one-directional web page. Let people -- and search engines -- know the project is chugging along. Give customers something to look forwards to.

* Fill a niche, and give the software a broad appeal. A tool with "something for everyone" -- features that not everyone uses, but everyone uses SOME features -- is important to have.

* Write GREAT documentation, and typeset it with LaTeX. This is important to convey quality. Hobby-ware has a Readme.txt -- professional-ware has a PDF manual that is so well-written, it could be printed out, put in a box with the software on a CD, and shipped.

* Record the project into history. Be everywhere on relevant forums, and push the product when it's relevant. When someone has a problem that your software fixes, they will see those comments -- even years from now -- and that helpful, relevant advice is genuine marketing that stays posted forever. Bought ads don't come anywhere near that kind of value.

And, as far as the actual software is concerned, write it in a popular language with a popular graphics toolkit. Python 3 + Qt5 or 6 -- using PyInstaller to generate single-file executables -- is dang near perfect. Stick to conventional user interface guidelines. Build software that you, yourself, use everyday. Don't work on software that you don't use personally.

Familiarize yourself with macOS software of the 1990s (most software of this era was good, most software today is bad), and this article -- How To Design Software Good. https://www.haiku-os.org/docs/HIG/index.xml


👤 brudgers
Sales is a matter of talking to people you know. There is no shortcut. The work is:

  1. Meet people.
  2. Get to know them.
  3. Make a pitch if they have a problem they will pay you for.
  4. Get paid.
That their problem inclines them to pay you is the only important feature of the problem and that you get paid is the only important feature of your service.

Meeting people is literally meeting people.

Getting to know them means time and effort spent fashioning a relationship. B2B relationships are long term. You can assume that people who regularly use agencies already have agencies they work with and will continue to work barring change to their business or the agency's business. These happen but not on a high pressure timeline. Consulting is a long con. Good luck.


👤 igorzij
Founding Sales

Also while not exactly about sales, "Softwar" (a bio of Larry Ellison) has a ton of great insights on enterprise sales


👤 noashavit
Crossing the chasm, repeatable revenue the challenger sale, start with why

👤 PaulHoule
You sound like you want to sell contracts to develop custom software not prewritten software right?

👤 kjs3
I have many times recommended Harry Beckwith's books for this.

👤 Logingarrett
Triangle Selling has good sales processes for an agency.

👤 callmeed
Predictable Revenue is considered canon for B2B/enterprise sales https://www.amazon.com/Predictable-Revenue-Business-Practice...

But not sure how applicable to agencies it is so YMMV.


👤 vismit2000
A great deep advice: Listen to your customers.

Customer is always right, because he is the one paying.


👤 chrisrickard
Devtoagency.com

👤 DrStartup
Challenger sale

👤 blitzar
I need to see what your baseline is...

Sell me this pen.


👤 jjude
1. Know your customer (geography, industry etc; their revenue segment; CTO or CMO or CEO etc). Selling to a CMO of an e-com making $100mio in Europe is different from selling to a CTO of startup in healthcare in Canada. When they finished talking to you on the first call, they should feel this guy told me more than I knew in my business; he was able to articulate what I was thinking. If you leave them with that thought, most probably they will come back to you to sign on the dotted line.

2. Speak in conferences that interests your customers. If you are a techie, default attraction is to speak in tech conferences. Unless you are selling to CTOs or VP(Engineering), none of your customers come there. You shouldn't just participate in these conferences where your customer's come. You should be a speaker. Speakers have a certain authority and your customers will crowd to that awesome speaker of the conference. It might only generate lead, but it will be a strong, qualified lead. From sales point of view, these conferences will give a pretty good idea of what matters to your customers.

3. Find the decision maker as quickly as possible and speak to them rather than wasting time with gate-keepers who can say no but not yes. Decision maker is the one who writes the cheque or the sponsor of the project or who can say yes as well as no. Decision maker need not be a CEO all the time.

4. Roleplay sales calls. Record these roleplays and keep improving your tone, words, tempo everything. You should be able to establish quickly why you, why now, and why at the price point you mention.

5. In every step of the journey, they should see value in interacting with you. As often as the prospect says, "of all the agencies I'm talking to, you folks come with depth and present with structure", it is better for you. Even if they don't close because of price, they will come back to you.

6. Make them smile during the sales call. There are many ways to do it. They will forget what you told them, but they will never forget how you made them feel. If you make them feel good, they will come back. At the least, they will refer you to others.

7. As a techie, you might have dealt with logic and deterministic outcomes. Sales is emotional and probabilistic. Get used to it. It is not easy.

Finally, good luck.

(P.S: If interested you can read what I wrote about: Mastering sales as a CTO: https://jjude.com/cto-sales/; it is not as agency owner, but I get on sales calls for an IT services company. So probably we are closer in that sense).


👤 bpiroman
The Saas Playbook! Also includes a lot of good references for further reading

👤 richardbui95
The SaaS Playbook

👤 Atmael
you either know how to sell or you don't

in my experience someone who programs usually can't sell

hire a marketing expert from your industry