HACKER Q&A
📣 keepamovin

Why do centers of international power often have acute urban poverty?


I guess the key examples are Brussels (EU HQ) and DC (center of US power globally). But there are more examples and details:

- Washington, D.C. (U.S. Federal Government, World Bank, IMF) - Economic disparity between wealthy political districts and impoverished areas like Anacostia; aging infrastructure and high crime rates in some neighborhoods.

- Brussels (European Union, NATO) - Neglect in neighborhoods like Molenbeek, characterized by poverty, unemployment, and social unrest, contrasting with the European Quarter.

- New York City (United Nations) - Stark economic divide between Manhattan’s financial district and outer boroughs like the Bronx, which experience poverty, crime, and deteriorating infrastructure.

- Paris (UNESCO, OECD) - The affluent city center contrasts with impoverished suburban banlieues, facing unemployment, crime, and lack of investment, especially in areas like Seine-Saint-Denis.

- Geneva (UN, WHO, ICRC) - Rising housing costs and inequality push local residents out of central districts, while some suburbs face underdevelopment and exclusion from international wealth.

- San Francisco Bay Area (AAPL, GOOGL, META, CRM, UBER, ABNB, SQ, PINS, DOCU, LYFT, SNOW, ZM, OKTA, PCOR, RIVN, DASH, SPOT, OpenAI, Stripe, Instacart, Plaid, Reddit) - Extreme wealth disparity between tech hubs and areas like the Tenderloin; homelessness, housing shortages, and infrastructure decay in contrast to booming tech industry districts.

If I'd arrived on Earth from outer space, I'd expect the most powerful places to look the part. Down to the finest details. What is going on?


  👤 shortrounddev2 Accepted Answer ✓
I can't speak to the rest of the world, but the reasons behind crime and poverty in DC are different than the reasons behind crime and poverty in NY.

DC crime is abnormally high because DC lacks the ability to elect or appoint its own prosecutors. DC has a US Attorney who is seen as disconnected from the interests of its citizens and fails to prosecute people often. Additionally, poverty is high in DC because of nimbyism, which has prevented the construction of large, skyscraper apartment buildings for the last 100 years. In the outlying suburbs, where the real wealth of DC is, nimbyism has kept housing prices extremely high with single family zoning.

In New York, the lack of housing supply is caused by a byzantine zoning board and rent control lowering the incentive to build new residential buildings. I can't speak to crime there, but they have their own prosecutors.

San Francisco is like a mix of the two. For years their incompetent prosecutors simply refused to prosecute people for ideological reasons, and nimbyism has taken a massive toll on affordability there. Probably more than any city in America


👤 AnimalMuppet
"Center of power" = "opportunity". If I'm poor, and there's no hope in, say, rural Appalachia, and I want some kind of a decent life, I'm going to go to some more urban place. There may not be much chance there - I may not be qualified for the good jobs - but there's no chance at all at home. So centers of power attract those with nothing who want to stop being those with nothing.

And where they wind up... say they're living in the Bronx, in poverty, crime, and deteriorating infrastructure. They still may judge themselves to be better off than they were in rural Appalachia, where there was poverty, crime, deteriorating (or no) infrastructure, and no opportunity.

Note well: I have lived neither in rural Appalachia nor in the Bronx. This is speculation not based on first-hand knowledge.


👤 adamhp
Those places didn't become "centers of international power" by being equatable.

👤 tacostakohashi
Cities draw people from the surrounding areas looking for employment, services, etc. That's what a city is.

Some of those people are impoverished. For those without unique skills, there's a race to the bottom for unskilled labor.


👤 aristofun
It has nothing to do with "power" or politics or any of the controversial issue that one may think of.

The bigger the city, the richer it is - the more attractive it is for all sorts of people including poor ones, sketchy and business types. Because just more opportunities.

It's basics.

For alients it would only mean there is a freedom (freedom of movement etc.). Even if too much freedom.

For example Moscow after WW2 under Stalin's rule looked beautiful - clean streets, good looking people etc.

You know why?

Because there was an order to move all handicapped, poor and sketchy people 101km away from moscow under threat of criminal charges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_kilometre

What do you prefer?


👤 keepamovin
I should also add Beijing to this list:

- Beijing (BIDU: Baidu, JD: JD.com, BABA: Alibaba, TCEHY: Tencent, DIDI: DiDi, PDD: Pinduoduo, NIO: Nio) - Rapid development and modernization in central areas combined with core of political power contrasts with pollution, underdeveloped outskirts, and socio-economic disparity in peripheral districts.


👤 solardev
IMHO only, as a regular person who's lived in small towns and big cities, but not a economist/sociologist or anything like that: a combination of rural flight from homogenous communities plus increasing inequality.

In the US (and probably elsewhere too), we have a concept called the "urban-rural divide", in which different kinds of people live and work in the countryside vs the cities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban%E2%80%93rural_political_...

The cities, being the centers of commerce as they are, draw people from all different backgrounds (and in the case of the US) all over the world, seeking to make a better life for themselves. Sometimes it works out for those people, especially if they have relatively rare skills.

But for others who go there with their clothes and dreams, or just out of desperation, or are born into intergenerational poverty, the US doesn't really have any systems to help them climb the ladder. We like to think of ourselves as a place where any person can bootstrap themselves into success, but that is almost never the case, and for every self-made billionaire, there are a million people who are just barely scraping by, if even that. If you're not born into a good area with good parents and good schools and good internships and such, your chances of getting a good job later on in life are vastly diminished, your personal genetics and efforts notwithstanding. A large part of it is the birth lottery.

Then the darker side of urbanization comes into play: Namely, the de-communitization of societies. In smaller rural areas, the community is typically very close and tight-knit and homogenous, closer to villages than metropolises. It's the sort of environment we evolved in, with families and villages and small in-groups where everyone mostly knows everyone else and shares similar backgrounds and religions and other values, and in a way helps take care of each other. Sure, there's competition and interpersonal conflict and a lot of inbreeding and such, but at the end of the day they are more similar to each other than someone from across the world who eats, wears, works, and worships totally different things. If an outsider joins a small town like that, they'll likely assimilate into it because there's not much of a bubble for themselves. Or they can form their own nearby bubble, which is how we often end up with small cultural enclaves near metropolitan areas (the Chinatowns and ethnic neighborhoods).

If you end up in a city (or are born into one) without such a support network, well, then you're kind of on your own. Everyone else there is trying to make it, too, often barely able to juggle work, their own friends/family, networking, etc. and still being able to pay rent. It's a hustle, and it takes so much time to get anywhere (because of traffic), and everyone's always in a rush and in their cars or on transit, constantly in motion from A to B to C to D and repeating the cycle every day. There's barely any time to pay attention to the peers in their immediate circles, much less people much lower on the economic ladder for whom they have little direct social experience with. They're just a blip on your daily radar, people and streets to avoid on your day to work rather than a part of your in-group. You don't really know what they want or need or why they're there, how they ended up homeless, you just don't want to end up like them. So you keep hustling and keep avoiding them. For some, maybe their conscience eventually starts tingling, and they feel somewhat inclined to make their city less apocalyptic, but they don't really know what to do about it.

So they typically end up doing the easiest and laziest thing: Voting. Politicians virtue signal and claim they'll fix all the city's issues, but like everyone else, most of them them are in it for the hustle (especially in big cities, which are often a stepping stone to state or national power). Very few of them have experienced homelessness or poverty on their own, and they see it as just another metric to tinker with, not necessarily a collection of individual personal experiences. So they react to it and form policy groups and work with nonprofits, many of which are full of well-intentioned idealists who want to make things better but don't necessarily have evidence-based solutions readily available to them, so they try everything from moving and bussing, providing shelters, increasing emergency weather heating areas, drug legalization, safe injection sites, tent cities, sober housing, limited UBI experiments... but all of those are inadequate band-aids for a much deeper cancer inherent to capitalism: inequality is by design, and ultimately necessary for the top classes to exist.

During COVID, a lot of people in the US got free money every month and didn't have to work and didn't have to pay rent (and somehow the economy survived). There's so much money and resources, just poorly distributed, that these issues don't really HAVE to exist, but the MYTH of them must go on for the labor force to continue to want to work and race each other to the bottom (remember how hard it was for restaurants and retail to hire and keep people during that time?)

Well, IMO, urban poverty is just a reflection of that same phenomenon. We could fix it only by lessening inequality and making those areas more economically (and probably culturally) homogeneous, like smaller towns typically are, but then that would mean that there is a less of a hustle culture and less fear driving people to overwork themselves trying to climb to the top. It would lower GDP in order to improve societal well-being and happiness, which is not what our policymakers, economists, and powers that be want. The US wants a gilded society where 250 million people work their asses off so that 40 million can be comfortable and 10 million can be rich.

So instead we just keep virtue signaling, addressing the mere symptoms of deepening inequality and de-communitization, always trying to push the top of the ladder higher without bothering anymore to bring the bottom up with us. The rich get richer, developers see that and build more luxury housing, politicians optimize for the middle class and up, and affordable housing becomes something you only read about in history books or see in small towns or the token few regulated apartments in a city. And as small towns grow more popular, they see the same sorts of gentrification and eventually become small urban centers with similar problems.

Of course there's also other interconnected side issues like drug use, gangs, mental illness, deinstitutionalization, not wanting to work, etc., but those aren't necessary or sufficient to explain the widespread poverty and homelessness we see now. What little research we have into the causes of homelessness seem to indicate that many people float into and out of it for a while at a time, sometimes multiple times cyclically, but not necessarily because of those issues. Once you get stuck in that system though, it's really hard to climb back out, and all the other contributing problems become much more serious. If you're middle class, mental illness is something you deal with with a therapist. Addiction is something you can go to a treatment center for. When you're poor and out on the streets, you're mostly invisible and surrounded by others who are down and out and hopeless and if anyone pays attention to you, it's overworked and underpaid case workers and volunteers who don't really have much political or economic power to actually fix any of your problems.

Other societies/countries have poverty too, of course, but not necessarily the same level of homelessness that we see in modern developed capitalist economies. I think that goes back to the de-communitization thing earlier... few societies are are heterogenous as the US (and some European metropolises) are. They're less of a melting pot, and families and villages and towns tend to stick together more and support each other. Yes, they can still be poor on a purchasing power parity basis, but that doesn't really measure their daily life relative to others near them, just how much less spending power they have compared to first-worlders. But at least often they can share resources and housing, even if they can't afford the latest iPhone. That's way harder to do in an urban developed city where you're just one faceless hustler among a few million others, all struggling to get by.

So in the US we're kinda stuck. The upper classes who make the rules don't really want to lessen inequality by any measurable amount. They might pretend to, but that's just to get your votes, after which they'll just keep implementing the same sorts of policies and business-friendly regulations that keep making the country richer at the top, occasionally throwing scraps at the bottom. They've discovered that homelessness, crime, cultural divides, etc., can all be weaponized into "useful idiot" ideologies in culture wars that serve to divide and conquer the lower classes, keeping us busy fighting each other over ultimately minor, irrelevant things rather than trying to do anything about the economic system as a whole. The system, in their eyes, isn't broken. It's working as designed, and urban blight is a good weaponized reminder that you better work harder or you'll end up like them.