Man here, mid thirties. "Stuck" in a boring, but comfortable, 9-5 in tech. Trying to build a business on the side.
Every day feels like prison. I don't care about tech anymore in the way I used to care. I don't like working with people anymore. I hate the mental constraints of 9-5, hence I'm trying to build a business.
But the business doesn't work either. Most days I struggle to find any force to drag myself out of bed and do bare minimum for yet another day. After my day job I feel so exhausted that I can barely find desire to work on the business.
Most days feel like groundhog day. I'm not depressed. I train regularly (4-5 times a week), I don't abuse alcohol and never touched drugs. I did big change in my life recently: quit my soul crashing job, went to travel for extended period, moved to a different country, found a different job. It was fun while it lasted, but now I'm back to the same place I tried to escape back then, albeit in a different physical location and work place.
I have a comfortable life, nor luxury, neither poverty. Other than sport and building my business, I don't have any other hobbies or goals I pursuit. I'm in a relationship. I feel like I tick all "middle class" boxes, and yet I'm unhappy. I get scared when I realize that this is my life for the next 30-40 years.
I want to change something but I don't know what. Anyone been in similar situation and was able to escape?
Jumping to a lifetime commitment as a kneejerk reaction is just so wild to me. Maybe start with a hobby? This guy is working a full time job and a side hustle, but doesn't seem to do anything for himself. What happens if he has kids and realizes he's still unfulfilled? It's not like he can just return them.
Or it could be ADHD or a plethora of other things.
So you'll get the same advice as anyone else who feels generally bad - talk to a doctor. Maybe there is a medical thing going on. Maybe there is a mental thing going on. Ask a couple professionals to evaluate you, and maybe you'll find a path to improve things.
But depression is just a label, it's not like accepting that label means there is a single known fix for it. Accepting it might at least remove your current obstacle to exploring certain options.
Talk to a doctor. Talk to a therapist. You might be one of the many people for whom a chemical treatment will help, or you might be one of the many people for whom something like cognitive behavioral therapy will help. There is unlikely to be a magic bullet, but there are many things to try. If you're able to detect an incremental change, you can focus in on that path. Right now you may be dulled out enough that you don't have the energy to detect what's working or do anything with it, so you should start with some professional help to lift you up enough that you can start doing the work to make forward progress.
Yes, I have been in a similar situation. I can't say I've "escaped". I think that was my expectation for a long time, that either you're stuck in the mud or you come up with a way to escape, but it's one of those things where lowering my expectations was necessary to making progress, and in retrospect I've made more progress that I would have initially thought possible. But I don't feel like I've escaped. It's still there, and it still drags me down periodically, but it's been a while now since my last long period of really wallowing in it.
Family can help. Friends can help. Work can help. Entertainment can help. But all of them can be a crutch, too, and just be a means to extend the status quo. You'll need to put work into each and every one of them specifically to make sure they're actually taking you in the right direction. It's a constant vigilance sort of thing, which might sound awful but at some point you'll look back and see that it's more than worth it.
I did this, but in my 20s. Realized that wherever I went, I'd be there too. That realization shook me and I started to work to become more comfortable with who I was and what I wanted. Some of that was reading, a bit of therapy, but mostly just examining my desires and accepting them rather than thinking about what I "should want to do".
> Anyone been in similar situation and was able to escape?
I think you are asking about escaping the situation, but I think escaping the fantasy of a magically different life is a better goal. Things that I did that helped:
* trying new things that you dream of. If you think working on a farm is going to change your life, try it. If you think working in a different field will, try that. (I see you doing this to some extent with your business.)
* looking at your financial condition and seeing where it leaves you. Sometimes we stay in jobs because we feel we have to, but what steps can you take to not. There's some flexibility in software to go to 4 days a week or contract. Maybe that kind of job is a better fit for you. But check the finances first.
* pick big fun goals and treat the job as a means to that end. Could be more travel or other experiences.
It sounds like you're in need of a Purpose. Like many folks in modern times.
Casually and broadly speaking, I'd say you have a couple of paths forward. Neither is a short-term holistic solution. These paths aren't mutually exclusive either.
1. Focus on creating and solidifying a family
Many many people trudge through boring and uninspiring work, all for purpose of providing and protecting for a family. There's great motivation and satisfaction in this. Don't be afraid of traditional gender roles and arrangements, and take pride in this accomplishment. Find good role models and mentors for this early, to help understand how to think about these challenges and gain fulfillment from them.
2. Refactor and keep trying with clear short-term goals
Regarding your business(es). The majority of successfully independent people have tried numerous things before succeeding. Repeatedly I hear the successful people say to keep trying. It's hard.
So, keep trying. Maybe you need to diversify your efforts and try some different services, products, businesses. Whatever your focus, set some more specific and short-term goals. When you have clearer goals, and you focus on those goals (with action), then other things like the 9-5 lose attention and focus. You shift from ruminating on the frustrations and instead attend to the goals and the possible.
Good luck!
This blew up fast. I'll provide more context in this comment rather than commenting individually for the sake of not repeating myself.
First of all, children and family. I am considering this, but I doubt this is the solution to all problems. I agree with people who say it can provide a sense of purpose, but I also agree with people who think it's a bit irresponsible to recommend children to a stranger who shared something like I did.
Next, ADHD and depression. Never did ADHD test, I suspect I might have slight form of it. Depression I refuse to believe it exists in the form society labels it. For me, depression is a chemical imbalance, rather than a state of laziness/sadness/lost in life. Even if I have something like this, I won't take medication. Just a personal view on modern medical system, based on my experience with multiple psychologist and psychiatrists who did more harm that good (in my opinion).
Therapy. As mentioned above, therapy did more harm than good to me. Sure it might work for some people, but my experience with over 4 therapists ended up with either "nothing is wrong with you, don't visit me any more" or attempts to put me in a one of the boxes that the therapist learned about in school, while I clearly try to avoid any boxes.
God, hobbies, etc. I'm not 16 years old. I have grown up responsibilities, and I can't indulge myself in new hobbies every day. I'm focused (as much as I can) on building a business in order to escape the soul crashing tech industry and live on my terms (as much as possible, ultimate freedom is somewhat a lie). Together with this I try to work on my health, and maintain relationship(s). These are my 3 priorities in life, in no particular order. I don't have the time or desire to explore woodworking, or cave diving.
Thanks for everyone who commented, I appreciate every one of you <3
also you:
> Every day feels like prison.
> Most days I struggle to find any force to drag myself out of bed
> After my day job I feel so exhausted that I can barely find desire to work on the business.
It kind of sounds like you might have depression. I suggest you check in with your primary care provider or a licensed therapist.
Every day was one day closer to release, to being able to see and spend time with the people I cared most about. I saw dates on the calendar approach and looked forward to them. I never had much opportunity to be bored, and there were plenty of activities I could engage in, even during 24 hour lockdowns. I was forced and encouraged to eat fewer calories (at first at least) and lost a lot of weight, making me much healthier. I had goals I was very eager to work toward, but artificially put off because I couldn't do them while locked up.
This sounds like a mid-life crisis. Your SHBG levels rise with age and your free testosterone levels are likely low. Getting looked over for TRT can potentially help.
Having a middling career isn't enough for a lot of people. Why aren't you in the 1% killing it? A lot of them have problems, but having more money than you know how to spend is a source of contentment for a lot of wealthier people.
Wrapping it up with a quote: "I never worked a day in my life. It was all fun."
> I'm not depressed.
Hey man, are you sure?
So you have a relationship, athletic hobbies, steady job, and side business?
That is luxury. It's just that you've convinced yourself it's prison for some reason.
> now I'm back to the same place I tried to escape back then, albeit in a different physical location and work place.
As they say, wherever you go, there you are.
Even if you found "luxury" then you'd convince yourself it wasn't enough.
Figure out how to solve that problem. Because quitting your job or whatever isn't going to work.
> I get scared when I realize that this is my life for the next 30-40 years.
If you get 30-40 more years of life, think about how lucky you'll be compared to the people who die of cancer in their 40s or 50s?
You could try coaching (look for ICF certified, or if you're in UK, AC certified coach). This would help you find goals that trully matter TO YOU, and develop fulfilling process for reaching these goals.
You could also try pschoterapy. This could help you be more self-aware and develop mental skills for dealing with feelings that you described.
Spending a month in Thailand and (especially) Cambodia gave me a lot more appreciation for how much I had. However, it also broke my interest in the American Dream. Seeing a guy running a small motorcycle shop while his toddler son played on the steps made me feel that the Western, Corporate system is really damaged. Spending most of your waking hours at some office building with people you don't particularly like, working on something that you can't care about except in abstract terms? Seeing your life's work dissolve when it's abandoned after the next acquisition or bankruptcy? It's not a recipe for a satisfied life.
I don't know what the solution is, but your best bet is probably to get into therapy and learn tools to practice gratitude. It's so easy to become complacent and blind to the great things we have.
Edit: I just saw your additional comment. I still stand by my therapy comment, specifically for the purpose of learning tools and exercises. Unfortunately, I have no idea how you find a decent therapist for this purpose.
It is very normal to not like your job. Most people do not. They do it as a means to feed their families, build security for their future, or to buy amazing toys. Search yourself for the reasons you have your job. If you don't have any good ones, why do it? But if you are doing it for a reason, it is no prison, but a means to your desires. Once you find those reasons, stay connected to them. Journal them, meditate on them, remember them every day. Nietzsche wrote "He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how." This is how you build gratitude, and gratitude is how you sustain optimism.
I highly recommend therapy as a way to explore yourself and cultivate purpose. It has changed my life in similar circumstances. Other tools I have found very useful are exercise, meditation, good nutrition, and building relationships with others.
The feelings you are have are common and everyone feels this way sometimes. You are not lost, keep going.
Having said that, don't punish yourself so much. Most people feel what you are feeling, most of the time. You just went through a big change in your life, and now you are wondering why it didn't help. Maybe you are blaming yourself for making all these changes. But guess what, you were focused enough to get it done, and maybe it didn't pan out. It's too early to say whether it did or not.
It's actually okay for things to not work out the way you want. The real problem is to consciously or unconsciously expect results for everything you do. And then finding fault in yourself when results don't show up. Don't punish yourself by doing that. Let things be for some time. Take pleasure in small everyday things, like making a breakfast that you enjoy. Look forward to things. Don't try to find things to look forward to, instead just look forward to routine things that are part of your life anyway.
In other words, relax. And consult a therapist.
My recommendation is get closer to nature, trees, the living green, fresh air, sunshine... The things that bring a real physical joy to the mind and body. Mankind is not meant to spend all day in man-made caves with flickering lights
> I hate the mental constraints of 9-5, hence I'm trying to build a business.
I think owning a successful business means you work with people more, not less.
> After my day job I feel so exhausted that I can barely find desire to work on the business.
There's value in powering through and getting stuff done. But there is also a time to step back and do less. You're the best person to judge what's right.
I agree with everyone else. You need a purpose. If not the business, then something else. Here's an incomplete list of things people find purpose in:
1. Religion
2. Children and family
3. Volunteering and helping others
4. Hobbies
5. Friends and community
6. Involvement in local politics
7. Climbing the corporate ladder
9. All-out hedonism - games, partying
> I get scared when I realize that this is my life for the next 30-40 years.
Normal and natural. But 40 years is a long time and a lot can change. What would you like to be different?
The best single thing you can do is to find a therapist. They're trained, experienced professionals whose entire job is to help people with these types of situations - not just folks with mental health issues. They are like personal trainers but for your mind, not your body.
Look up some therapists in your area and try them out until you find one you get along with. Don't worry about the cost: if you're a middle class tech worker you can definitely afford it, and even in the US it's easy to find therapists covered by health insurance. It's an incredibly worthwhile experience.
Good luck with figuring all of this out!
Your current career path is not fulfilling to you. We know that because you wrote "I get scared when I realize that this is my life for the next 30-40 years." Nothing wrong with that. The one strategy that won't work is to keep doing what you're doing.
You can change careers, possibly after going back to college to train for something completely different, or you can change your life, so that it doesn't revolve around your career so much. The latter could be getting married, it could be satisfying an unmet need such as religion or helping poor people get dental care, it could be flipping houses, or a ton of other things that don't require a change to your career.
Sounds easy, I am well aware that it's often terrifying, but it's the only solution.
Citation needed.
Seriously, as someone who has struggled in much the same way, go talk to a therapist or psych. Depression doesn't mean being sad all the time. Finding little interest or pleasure in doing things is one of the core diagnostic criteria.
For me, my job is important. If you can find a kernel of passion in your work, it makes your career a lot more satisfying. But a career or successful business alone aren't enough to give most people purpose or deep meaning in life.
It might upend your world, but "Most days I struggle to find any force to drag myself out of bed and do bare minimum for yet another day." will never exist.
It's okay to be like that. Just take a small step towards something you'd like to achieve. It's okay if it doesn't work out, be proud that you've taken that small step. That's how many success stories actually started, from small steps combined with a huge amount of luck - but few will admit. And you might not succeed no matter how many times you do it - you should still be proud that you tried.
And remember - you only hear of success stories in social media.
Once you own that - and I mean really own it - only then can you move forward.
The last thing you should do is bring anything more in your life - except - what you are good at.
Find THE thing you're good at - it's the only thing that will bring you forward and some joy.
Once found - exploit it like hell.
It has also motivated me to take advantage of any free time I have. This baby is soon going to be forming a world view and I need to be there to show him the way. If that's true I need to learn a lot, and fast.
It's funny. I'm STRIVING to have this type of "boring" life, but instead, my life is tragic and a struggle at this moment. It's all about perspective. For me, the 9-5 and having capacity to do something outside of work seems like a luxury to me.
Where did you travel and what did you see? I was away in SEA for five years in my twenties and it changed me in very positive ways.
Ultimately, life and experiences are about people and interactions with them, so maybe something in there that you could optimize. Only thoughts tho, no concrete advice I can give.
I do think that figuring this out on your own is a fun little journey in of itself.
Dying from cancer makes me feel that way too: https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=40970295 In my case, I can't really speak any more. Until mid-June I could eat pureed foods, and now I can't even do that.
You only live once. Make some changes. Deepen friendships. Focus on romantic partner. Life is not about you, it's about the people you're with and who are around you.
My pops has been going to a local temple for almost 20 years now, he’s not a religious person it’s so he can integrate with people in the community.
> I don't abuse alcohol and never touched drugs
Try a guided journey with psychedelics, in my experience it’s always a good hard-reset on the brain.
Fix that.
> I don't care about tech anymore in the way I used to care. I don't like working with people anymore.
Fix that too or do a different career.
You pulled a 'geographical' and it did what those do, and you're back where you started.
Start by talking to your Doctor.
Eventually a buddy of mine wanted to start a company, so we did. And it eventually grew big enough to support us, but even though the work was interesting to start, it got dull. And finally I just couldn't do it anymore.
So I quit, and then floated around working on whatever I wanted to work on for a year. I took a few odd jobs. I think I was on track to earn something like $25k that year.
But then, due to some programming guides I'd written, a teaching job opportunity fell into my lap. And I always knew that teaching was what I wanted to do. It was a pay cut, but at this point I was more than willing to trade the money.
I've since moved on to a State University for even more of a pay cut, and I work about 8 months a year (3 months unpaid), and this is my idea of the perfect semi-retirement for the duration. Not too shabby.
Sometimes people still approach me for programming gigs, but so far every single one of them has not engaged my enthusiasm. And even the promise of possible, improbable eight-figure payouts isn't enough.
But I always knew what it was I wanted to do. The question is, what would you do if you had a million dollars and didn't have to work?
I do recommend doing exactly what you're doing, and getting on figuring it out now. Because when you hit your 50s, time really starts ripping by. And it might take some time for you to figure out.
"You know what I would do if I had a million dollars? I would invest half of it in glorious mutual funds and take the other half over to my friend Asadulah who works in securities and--"
"Samir, you're missing the point. The point is you're supposed to work out what you--'PC Load Letter'? What the fuck does that mean?!"
A few years ago I started asking myself: "Is this it? Is this all that life has to offer? What's the point?". I was raised secular, and never knew spirituality or religion, but decided to delve in. I was, however, very much against Christianity and was willing to try anything except that. Long story short, after reading about religions, history, theology, I ended up becoming a proponent of the thing I hated the most.
Now I see beauty in life, and especially the future. My fiance and I are getting married, we now go to Church, we're both looking forward to starting a family.
I don't know if you're religious in any way, or interested at all. I was definitely not interested the first 30 years of my life.
If you'd like: I'd be willing to get into contact with you if you need to talk. Not to convert you to Christianity, but since we seem similar in this very narrow scope, maybe we can both learn from each other.
Regardless, I truly hope you find your salvation, as I have found mine. God bless!
What the hell is HN going on about with all of this; Have a family BS. It sounds like you're suffering some burnout, and it might be time to seek some help from a psychologist/psychiatrist.
Change up your training routine. Spend more time outdoors. Quit the dead-end tech job. Downsize and travel more.
Good luck!!
The comfort of the current job makes it difficult to put the work into building a business eh.
> I don't like working with people anymore. I hate the mental constraints of 9-5, hence I'm trying to build a business.
That's not going to work out for you. Businesses require you to interact with people.
>Most days feel like groundhog day. I'm not depressed. I train regularly (4-5 times a week), I don't abuse alcohol and never touched drugs.
Good ole midlife crisis. Not exactly depression but it might as well be.
>I did big change in my life recently: quit my soul crashing job, went to travel for extended period, moved to a different country, found a different job. It was fun while it lasted, but now I'm back to the same place I tried to escape back then, albeit in a different physical location and work place.
You're seeking purpose. this might help: https://80000hours.org/career-guide/
>I have a comfortable life, nor luxury, neither poverty. Other than sport and building my business, I don't have any other hobbies or goals I pursuit. I'm in a relationship. I feel like I tick all "middle class" boxes, and yet I'm unhappy. I get scared when I realize that this is my life for the next 30-40 years.
Yep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vifg2LgF_ic
What you're discovering is that you're not going to be in the 5%ers, the financially independent category.
This statistic got worse since this video published. It's now more of a 1%er group and everyone blames the system, but that's completely wrong.
>I want to change something but I don't know what. Anyone been in similar situation and was able to escape?
You're thinking, wow i'm never going to be more of a success than i am right now. You have conformed to the 'middle class'. You chose this.
There is no competition in our society. you can be whatever you want to be, so long as your helping others and trying your hardest. The greater the # of people you can help, the better.
after you fix the relationship and expectation of your self consider whether you still want a business. or if you still want the same partner. be more selfish. if more selfish isn't for you maybe you'll realize how much you miss her. or how much you want kids. only then consider going forward with the burden of marriage, kids and what society expects of you ...
pain is the key but it doesn't automatically mean that pain needs to come from your partner or your kids. pretty sure you'll be perfectly capable creating pain by yourself.
you can do it.
The days can be slow, but years go by fast. I also don't care about work the way I did in my 20s and 30s. I never liked working with people (I liked individual performance and contribution the most, realizing this after having to manage several teams at once), but the only way to compete well and achieve meaningful things is in healthy teams. It's just hard to find the healthy people and healthy missions for those teams--one bad apple can spoil things, and there are bad apples everywhere.
The discipline you exhibit in exercise and moderation is big, as well as the courage to change jobs and build a business--I launched a business (late 40s, early 50s) that was mildly successful, but decided it wasn't worth it after many years. I have no regrets shooting my shot. I've been married for about 3 decades and have 3 great kids.
Here are some of my specific experiences and conclusions, which may apply generally to you and a plurality of people:
+ marriage is really hard. The hormonal buzz fades, and a lot of big decisions around money, career, kids, relationships need to be made and they can take a toll as not every decision is a win-win, better-over-good. The political polarization of the US and world is fluff compared to the large gaps between two people in a marriage. But marriage is also really great, to be able to halve the weight of life and double the celebration of it. I don't think many people are willing to do what it takes to have an extraordinary marriage, and even if both are, they won't always be 100% energized at the same time, and there will be drier seasons. Two are indeed better than one, but the opportunity costs of achieving a great marriage are high. Don't get married unless you can be all-in for the rest of your life, and you find someone who also seems to be (people don't always accurately indicate who they actually are or how they will change in dating and courtship, which is why a wedding is such an expression of hope, especially when looking at the data for success).
+ kids are great, but they are a ton of work and present high costs. The optimal amount of kids to have is probably 3-4, as sibling interaction is priceless for basic development. Special needs children are even more challenging to raise, and will be another stressor on a marriage. Having even 1 child will make a failed marriage even more devastating in impact. Even more differences and conflicts between spouses on values and priorities will emerge when parenting, and if spouses can't parent collaboratively, then they will likely fail more than succeed as parents--not as people, and I am not saying their children are failures, just everyone having to face more trauma, and yes, some are able to transcend their trauma
+ it is important to find real purpose in your job. I work in the US financial sector, and all my global travels (to Africa, Latin America, Europe, and Asia) and research leads me to believe that my work reduces poverty (through providing higher economic stability and productivity, relative to other jurisdictions) but it does so at a higher cost than need be--financial intermediaries enrich selves much more than clients. Still, I am both proud and humbled to be helping others emerge from and stay out of poverty, and hope that Wall St fees continue to ebb over time. I am confident your work also helps others, and you need to embrace the good that you are doing, as meaningless as it seems most of the time. I was a programmer out of college, and found that software change management was complex and tedious ... but I see that software progress will continue to be a great democratizing force for generations.
+ On faith and spirituality, I am a data and evidence-driven person, but I realize that we don't have enough data to make conclusions about the existence of a Creator, so it requires a leap of faith to assume One. The main benefit is that God is the Source of human worthy, dignity, value and rights. I have yet to identify a credible alternate source--but am familiar with alternate theories, and appreciate learning from Richard Dawkins, Chris Hitchens, etc. I am all-in with my local church, which is rare for its diversity (political, socioeconomic, racial, cultural), and we wrestle with loving people well--which Jesus was clear about, but churches tend to forget--and seeking truth where there isn't much data, through faith as well as reasoning. Through this community, I am able to help many friends who are struggling in various areas of life (including marriage, work, health, philosophy and other issues), as well as under-resourced people as close as a migrant shelter near the church building and as far away as one of the poorest provinces in Africa. Just this past weekend, I was able to help an asylum seeker from a repressive Middle East regime with career and personal finance counseling.
+ I am mildly engaged with my alma mater, in a variety of volunteer capacities. One role I had was to mentor an accepted high school student who lived nearby, and I am meeting him for lunch next week, almost 20 years after our first lunch. I would definitely recommend you meet many people, and then cultivate deeper and long term relationships with a few, the ones that resonate with you the most. I find the relationships made in the context of serving others can be the most meaningful, and whatever you are doing to pay the bills is really facilitating these relationships and your life legacy.
+ I am looking forward to continuing to see my kids thrive, through college, and perhaps marriage and grandchildren down the road. I am looking forward to retirement and travel. But I am also looking forward to new ways to help others, such as tutoring 1st and 2nd graders in reading, and 3rd and 4th graders in math--as if they don't get reading and math in these phases of life, they will likely be unable to ever grasp the basic skills to navigate and make good decisions.
In sum, there is so much life ahead for you to live. You are likely a global one-percenter in income ($60k) and retirement net worth ($900k), but it's natural for us to compare up and selectively--my hypothesis for why social media is such a time suck and contributor to mental health problems. But you need to discover the meaning, purpose and connections that concretely manifestable, which can all be hazy right now from the fog of culture. Seek, and you shall find.
Also I agree with the other commentor that you are in burnout mode. If you have a good startup idea, it may be better to raise money instead of trying to squeeze it in on the weekends at the expense of your nervous system.
Go out and buy a fast car, teenage fashions, and pick up a young girlfriend or two, lol.
But seriously, try a new hobby (and meet other people doing it), learn a language or musical instrument, join a choir, take up a sport, volunteer for charity work, teach a coding club, etc. You'll find there is life outside of work.
Good luck.
