HACKER Q&A
📣 divan

How to Get Better at Arguing?


I want to get better at rhetoric and argumentation, but I find it hard to find good books/videos/resources to learn it, let alone practice.

I find valuable insights in the Artistothle or Schopenhauer books, which is both fascinating and frustrating, as I'm expecting more modern books to be on the subject.

Another discovery is the books for argumentation for lawyers – seem to be a decent mix of philosophical depth and practicality.

I had hoped to find good books from the debating community, but most recommendations are paper-only from the 80s/90s, or overly focused on competitive debates.

This search for good resources on the fundamentals of argumentation seems to be quite a challenge. Perhaps I can find some good recommendations from the HN community.


  👤 Leftium Accepted Answer ✓
Perhaps "persuasion" would be better than "arguing."

"Arguing" invokes thoughts fighting; attacking the other side's beliefs. The natural response to attack is defense, no matter how wrong/incorrect the beliefs may be.

On the other hand, "persuasion" is working together; starting with where beliefs are common; not where they differ. Persuasion doesn't try to force people to change their mind, instead it offers them the opportunity to change their mind. This allows the other side to change their mind on their own.

Most people make decisions (beliefs) based on emotion, then later back them up with logic. So it is usually more effective to work at the emotional level than the logical level.

Finally, probably the most important lesson is not all people can be persuaded. If a person doesn't have even the tiniest desire to change their mind, no amount of persuasion/arguing can change them.

I learned most of this from direct response marketers, the guys who (are madly successful) at getting you to buy things.

This book is based on similar techniques: "Stop your divorce!: How to stop your divorce or lover's rejection ... even if you're the only one who wants to stop it"[1]

[1]: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/2114648


👤 DontSignAnytng
I recently had the opportunity to dive into ‘Argumentation: The Study of Effective Reasoning,’ offered by The Great Courses (no affiliation, just a happy customer). This course was a game-changer for me, significantly sharpening my reasoning and debate skills. It’s structured to not only introduce the fundamentals of sound argumentation but also to apply these principles through practical examples and exercises. I found the content to be both accessible and deeply enriching, providing insights that have been immediately applicable in my professional and personal communications. For anyone looking to enhance their persuasive abilities and understand the mechanics of effective argumentation, I highly recommend this course.

👤 syndicatedjelly
I used to do competitive debate. I don't recommend learning anything about that world, or using their recommendations. Competitive debate overlaps with real-world speaking, in the same way that competitive programming overlaps with actual software development. That is to say, there is very little overlap, and some actively harmful habits one will pick up from the former. It took me years to unwind all those "lessons" from debate club.

I've found the Socratic method to be an effective way to persuade people. Ask questions, figure out why a person believes what they believe. Do your best to "steelman" their point of view, and then share yours. A lot of the time, people just want to be heard.


👤 nickd2001
Resource from Monty Python here ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ


👤 andrei_says_
I really liked this talk by Sandi Metz on being persuasive.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VzWLGMtXflg


👤 ruraljuror
Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion https://a.co/d/917saBb

👤 caprock
Maybe step back a little and consider the outcomes you're seeking.

Argumentation is one path and tactic for achieving an alignment with a group of people. However, framing anything as combative can have some negative tradeoffs.

My experience is that more cooperative tactics like intent listening, questions, and yes-and can help broker a positive alignment with fewer negative tradeoffs.

If you switch mindsets you'll find lots of business books about effective communication, persuasion, and change management.

Good luck!


👤 2143
Not sure if this is the sort of thing that you're looking for, but the book I used during my critical thinking class might be useful:

Critical Thinking: An Introduction to the Basic Skills, written by William Hughes, Jonathan Lavery, and Katheryn Doran.


👤 andy99
The obvious Monty Python sketch comes to mind: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

👤 mech422
edit: I'm an idiot and you seem to have already looked into debate club stuff and you seem to be looking more recent written or online references? ---

I'm guessing being able to express what you've learned permissively is the most important part of arguing effectively?

In which case, for the US I'd probably look into ToastMasters (or maybe a debate club if your in a college area)


👤 joshxyz
never split the difference by chris voss comes to mind.

understanding your counterparts matters more than winning arguments.


👤 runjake
Get better at understanding and articulating the opposing viewpoint.