I'm 20M from South Asia (not India). Got a near full-tuition scholarship from a T200 public university to study undergrad in the US. Total costs would come out to about $20k USD/year according to the university. (Somewhat common scholarship, and would still need help from family to cover the complete costs)
I have about a year of experience under my belt and recently joined a non-tech-focused startup in Brlin for work under the condition that I'll move there soon. And, I'm really confused on which way to go. I do not have a qualification yet, moving to a place where everyone has a Masters and I don't speak the language feels like it'd be a massive footgun in case I get laid off or if the startup has to liquidate.
The traditional wisdom that I'd read repeatedly until last year was job experience triumphs college and the opportunity cost is not worth it which is why I took the job, but I'm having second thoughts. Does that also apply to Europe?
Would you say this is still the case considering the events of last year? Does the compensation and tax differential across the pond make the investment worth it to join the US labor pool down the line?
I would like to be close to home and Europe would be more amenable to frequent travel, but I've read many European developers lament how they could effectively retire and return after working for just a few years if they could work in the states, how realistic is that?
Objectively which do you think will be the better option? The analysis paralysis is crushing me and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I say this as someone who got a GC and dropped out of school to go work on my own startup before going back to do undergrad years later. The degree opens up a lot of options internationally and the US “college experience” is worth the time and money if you’ve got a scholarship.
Europe has a much more stable / less volatile job market, mass layoffs are subject to union negotiations (see Google's debacle in France) and your life will generally be much more stable. Citizenship is also, comparably, easier to obtain in the long run compared to the bureaucratic mess US naturalization presents.
If you are at all willing to learn the language and are someone who prefers a calm life with a social safety net over just "more money", I'd recommend a salaried job with pension in Germany any day over an overpriced US college.
Added bonus: University is actually free as in free beer (even for non-EU citizens it is 10-20x cheaper than US based institutions)
You will have more control over your destiny. EG if you work hard in your studies and pursue side projects you will prosper.
In contrast, you can do everything "right" at the startup and still end up unemployed due to forces outside your control. In a foreign country with no qualifications.
This is about more than stats and numbers - it’s about finding a new home, being welcomed, being able to fit in, open minded locals. Even really conservative North Americans are super nice and welcoming if you stick to the rules.
Having said all that, actually getting the right to move there is easier said than done, but totally worth it.
That being said, you're not going to just automatically get a jr. dev position in the US right now. The layoffs have been brutal, and there are a lot of developers looking for jobs at the moment. I don't know how long the current conditions are going to last, but generally speaking a bad job market is the perfect time to go to school.
How confident are you about your startup employer's ability to operate? Startups are notoriously fickle. I would take a very hard look at the company, its funding, leaders and business idea before deciding to rely on them for enabling you to immigrate to Germany.
I'd never go back to change getting the degree - it's a great stepping stone in the professional world, opens doors and interviews, you can go back to industry any time later on. However the college is much "easier" when you are 20 - easier to fit in, make friends etc. With life, responsibilities will pile up and there can and will be much more friction to decide and get back to college later on.
College then led to masters (in ML) and that has become and still is a technical basis of all my professional career, so I have a deepest gratitude for all of these educational opportunities.
I think this alone is an incredible opportunity that not many people get in their lives. IMO, you have the rest of your life to focus on your career. And is much better to spend these couple of recession/stagnation years in uni instead of in the professional world.
IMHO, after you graduate, you will have more experience (both technical and non-technical) and be able to find better jobs. And there will always be startups looking for good engineers....
So main thing to watch out for US is to have a stable path forward that does not kick you out in your mid to late twenties making you start from scratch from elsewhere.
US immigration policy it seems is pretty restrictive at the moment [0]
And as for German language, it is difficult in some ways but easier in some. Learning a language certainly takes time but it is not something that has not ever done by any human.
Good luck!
[0]. https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2023-03/2023-bier-...
That is with the assumption have to take out a lot of student loans for tuition.
> Would you say this is still the case considering the events of last year? Does the compensation and tax differential across the pond make the investment worth it to join the US labor pool down the line?
A lot of people say yes, including Europeans.
I am an American and from what I heard American degrees are very valuable across that small pond. Get your education. A bachelor's is the basic minimum. If your college offers a masters in some tech with a similar ride, take it as well.
How likely is it that you can secure a high earning job in the US after you graduate? There are plenty of developers in the US not getting FAANG money/benefits.
Unless you need to speak German for your job, you can very easily get by here without it (not saying you should). The only time you will notice uni degrees is when wondering why the working students are 10 years older than you. There are plenty of people here (and the US) that get jobs after completing coding bootcamps.
As others have said, it's going to be a matter of personal preference and what kind of trade-offs you want to make.
Look into studying in Germany (and/or while having the job).
You can get an equivalent degree there for anywhere from probably 10k-20k EUR p/y at the top schools. Going to a normal school will cost you a few hundred to maybe 3000p/y.
The work visa system in the US seems to create this stress because there's no automatic transition between states. You get a fixed, short period of unlimited work after graduating but then you need a job to sponsor you, which will most likely be as a "nonimmigrant" that has to be renewed and updated when you change jobs. And that never converts to a green card on its own, the employer has to start over with a new process and prove that no US workers are available to do the job.
In other countries (not sure about Europe), it's more like you get a work visa the first time, you keep working for 5-7 years, then you automatically get a permanent residence and can change jobs freely (or retire, study, etc.).
You do have a valid concern about what happens if you job ends, but I think in that case a good backup plan is just to apply for schools in Europe. Not sure how the timing would work out with admission cycles or how strict they are about how long you can stay before finding a new job/switching to student though.
You could even see if the US university would be willing to defer your admission for a year to do a "gap year" of work experience? That's kinda sort of a thing in the US, so it's worth asking.
If you want to just chill and not have high highs but just let the govt take care of you, go to Europe.
I'm a foreigner also living in Berlin, I have moved from a third-world country here almost a decade ago, but already had graduated and had worked a few years. Back then, having a recognized university diploma helped me get my visa processed. With the new German immigration reform, this shouldn't be a problem anymore. Nowadays I'm waiting on my citizenship, it feels great!
I've also tried to get into the States, but oh boy, the work visa, the lottery, and the COST suck. My wife wouldn't be able to work there. Healthcare and public services are utter garbage. There are much better immigration laws here in Germany, and you are already on your path to citizenship (in case you want to live in the EU).
You need to decide whether you want to shoot big and hopefully win big (US). I'm supposing you don't have rich parents and kind of need to do most things on your own and support yourself, so failure on those plans would be a big setback. If it isn't the case, I'd favour going to the US.
But if you are kind of just scraping by (like I was), Europe. Europe is the best.
Building a successful life in the US supposes the job market will be good when you graduate as if you can't find a job there, you'll be out. Europe will still accept you, but you'll have wasted some money and time.
In your situation, I'd continue working and attending a Berlin university while you work at night. Go to a private one that offers it in English (I'm supposing you aren't fluent in German), those that you pay some bucks and get a degree.
Take good advantage of this time while you are young(20s) and build yourself a life, it may be 4 years that you need to only work/study, but it will be worth it. It's time to "build your base", doing this is much easier while you are in your 20s, later on, you'll likely meet with people and end up with your routines etc. Take advantage of this time to develop yourself.
People like seeing you have a degree when reading your CV, trust me. And in Europe not so many care if you graduate from a top university, unless you are from Harvard.
By choosing this, I'd sincerely consider asking some help from your parents to foot the bill of living in Europe and studying.
If lifestyle and proximity to South Asia is important, take the Europe option. German work culture has a good work-life balance. Flying back home will be cheaper and faster.
But your other option is to move to Germany, which you can still do after getting a US degree. So you seem to belong to one of the rare categories that I think should study in the US - globally mobile and not super tied to staying in the US after getting their degree.
The only other category is if someone are genuinely brilliant i.e. companies would fight to keep you even if that involves dealing with a crazy visa process.
> The traditional wisdom that I'd read repeatedly until last year was job experience triumphs college and the opportunity cost is not worth it.
If you were taking on loans that might be the case. But in your case, you have a scholarship that tilts the opportunity cost.
To take a swipe at some conventional wisdom, yes experience does trump college eventually. But like a lot of things involving experience, people (like employers) only value it after you have it. Our profession is unique in that you can hack your way around college, but that is itself experience and you are competing with many others that are hacking that as well.
It is true that after a decade your college degree won't stand out as much, but when you don't have much experience a degree gives you a boost.
> startup
That's all you had to say. That is a large risk in these economic times even for experienced developers. I would look at this job with the same jaundiced eye as Silicon Valley equity options, and have a backup plan when things go sideways.
FWIW, I dropped out of college, worked for a while, and then went back to college. From my perspective it was worth the cost.
Your English (from this) appears operational and you will get many contacts in the USA, and if you make money in the USA it will go further if you later decide to go to the EU or back home.
You also get four years of stability to withstand whatever winds may blow.
You can project this to European (or even US) remote job + your place. Just charge top European or US rates, not the "local market rate".
Yes, management and other things can be terrible or acceptable in both.
But in the end of the day it comes down to your values and preferences - which kind of "hotel" do you like living the most.
There is no wrong answer.
Either you really learn a lot in your current Berlin company so that other companies will ignore your education or you will have problems.
And 20 is nothing just because it feels nice to earn money, long term it is much riskier.
It positions you inside the US and may make it easier to work here initially. Salaries here are much higher than EU, and opportunities much better imho. You can always move to EU later, and be in a much stronger position.
Background: from Ireland, moved to US. No college degree.
There's an off chance you might learn something that you might not have otherwise if you take the college approach, however I'm not sure it's worth the cost.
If so, you could take on the German job for a year with plans to move to the US after that. Gives you the best of both worlds.
(After a year on-the-job with the German company, they might be willing to let you work remote part-time, or at least you'd have connections if you wanted to make a move back later on)
I'm a naturalized citizen of US from Turkey, and nothing beats us when it comes to opportunities.
Not. Even. Close.
Even if you choose EU job, look for ways to come to US.
But it's still the better deal. Europe should be your plan B.
US public universities give scholarships to non citizens?
Understand you will die one day. Not as a concept. But as the truth.
Keywords doesn't matter. Resume doesn't matter.
Do what you really want to do.
Don't think too much about future.
You are not in control of it.
Don't analyse too much. It's a scam by your egoic mind.
Just do what do you want to do.
Where will you choose to go if you don't survive 1 more year? Go there.
Although it's unclear whether "joined a startup" means as co-founder, CxO, or some gig, might somewhat matter here.
As for "job experience triumphs college", for 90% of (even IT / dev) jobs that sounds like a ridiculous notion to me (the usually personally-interesting cutting-edge stuff is going to be both outside a job and most undergrad curriculums), regardless of how much edu quality may or may not have gone downhill in recent years. Sure, the big SV founder legends of yesteryear were mostly college drop-outs, but they weren't South Asians with a scholarship either. If their dropping-out had not paid off, they knew they could just return a few years later.
This stuff is so worth it. Even if there isn't much "college/campus life". My 3 years BSc. in the UK was pretty socially "isolated" except for a GF and her friend circle, but it was still totally worth it, slightly exotic and adventurous-feeling (20 years ago by now tho =) and had that college-town vibe I'd never known before, and with the workloads they had for students, I had a LOT of time to my own doings (whether freelancing or totally hobbyist — or in your case maybe, that startup or another, they come and go).
As for that Berlin non-tech startup? What are they even about, that might matter a bit here. There's an endless stream of rose-colored ventures cropping up and folding again all the time in Berlin (and other such "wanna-be startup capital of (insert county/country/continent)" cities), you know. I'd tell them of your unique opportunity and offer to continue remote + part-time for starters. Both are now much more culturally / business-wise acceptable, broadly, than ever before. If that's not good enough for them, split, else you can over time choose to "phase it down" or re-engage more-intensely as you like and time permits.
Also, gloom and doom (cultural-mood-and-zeitgeist-wise) once more proliferate and dominate on this old continent but especially this country currently (unlike say during most of the previous decade), but with that outlook direction Germany or east-of-it is always going to be a little extra-grim as a place-to-live on this continent IMO. I mean, for moving here.. anyone is welcome to, as far as I care, if that's their goal or need, but given the choice, I have a real hard time advertising it vs. countries / cultures like France, Italia, Spain, Portugal, even Britain.. That's a personal subjective bias tho =)
US: + once you finish education, and if you start employment in tech sector, you get to make more money(I’d even dare to say more than 2x, considering taxes, geography etc).
+ for the tech sector, US is where the hotness is. More opportunities, fuel for ambition.
+ while single and young, US can get you a lot of disposable income(read - less likely to get sick footing a huge medical bill, or avoid expensive child care, or school fees of children)
+ language. You don’t need to spend your time learning a new language that you may or may not use in the long term.
- (cons)
- politics (depends on personal views of course. Ask yourself if you can bear a society in which Trump wins the elections)
- the odd chance that you get in an accident or get sick with a weird/expensive disease, you’re screwed.
- personal opinion - food, lifestyle, and quality of life is comparatively poorer in the US on average than in EU. Read obesity, fatty, ultra-processed and sugary foods.
- Geography - farther to South Asia than Europe.
- Guns (depends on your views)
EU:
+ Safer, more consciously biased towards better quality of life. More public transport, walking cities, higher quality super markets, and produce etc.
+ politics (left leaning compared to the US on average)
+ traveling and cultural diversity - as in you can travel across the continent as even weekend trips and experience rich and diverse cultures - Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria, Poland, Netherlands, Scandinavia, France - so many experiences to be had.
+ in the long term, you don’t need to be anxious about falling sick, losing your job, education for your children etc. Social system has your back for all the taxes you pay.
+ Easier and probably cheaper to travel to South Asia often.
+ You get real holiday(atleast. 4 weeks or upto 6 weeks per year) to travel and live your life while young instead of bunkering to earn money.
- you definitely won’t make as much as you would have in the US.
- language. Depends on where in Europe you go, you may need to spend considerable amount of time learning the language. It could be a fun experience depending on your attitude, but it is time nevertheless.
- lowered ambition. A personal opinion. Having living equal time at both US and EU, I’ve come to conclude that EU encourages stability and playing it safe while US encourages ambitious attitudes and gets the best out of you. It depends on what you are looking for, and what you enjoy.
Hope it helped atleast a little and didn’t add more dots to your analysis paralysis.
To tip the scales, I live in the EU.
The EU, in spite of having more hot wars nearby geographically, is more stable right now.
