HACKER Q&A
📣 pierat

What happened to hackerspaces?


I remember when hackerspaces were in every major city, and quite a few medium sized cities also had them.

Now, most are gone, for various reasons.

What gives?


  👤 mdasen Accepted Answer ✓
Real Estate. So many quirky things are viable when there's cheaper rent, cheap buying opportunities, or underutilized space. If I could buy space for $150/sq ft, I might have some extra cash, like the idea of investing in real estate, and like the idea of having a cool community hackerspace. If it's going to cost me $1,000/sq ft, I'm barely going to be able to afford the space I want to live in. If a group of us can rent at cheap prices we're saving money on our housing and paying for a shared second space doesn't cost that much.

Over the past 15 years or so, property prices have soared in so many cities. It really makes it hard to afford space for quirky things. There are certainly plenty of examples of ones that still exist and enough determination and you can still make things happen, but I think the rising cost of real estate is putting a damper on things like this.


👤 iancmceachern
It's like most things, real estate.

Most hackerspaces I've been a part of couldn't or barely could afford their rent. Memberships were already too expensive, and they were constantly just getting squeezed between membership revenue and hard costs. Ultimately it doesn't add up.

I think a lot of what used to happen at makerspaces has transitioned to libraries. Lots of libraries have 3d printers, et. Now, are free, and don't have the problem with affording space.


👤 threatofrain
I think the finances of hackerspaces were always very brittle and Covid killed a lot of them.

https://hackerdojo.org/

https://makernexus.org/

https://sudoroom.org/

https://noisebridge.net/


👤 INTPenis
Maybe you'll get as many answers as there are hackers here but from my own perspective it seems it went the same way as all other communities. Internal strife, odd personalities, personal differences tore them apart slowly.

It's not all bad. In my city it seems the hacker spaces organized by individuals were replaced by maker spaces funded and organized by the city. At least two that I know of, that are now basically free co-working spaces with 3D printers, meeting rooms, free wifi and such.

One is run by the agency that ran the ccTLD back in the early 2000s, called Goto10 in Malmö and Stockholm. Very nice space to work at.

The other is run by the city of Malmö called Stapeln and is in a basement.

Besides those I know of at least two hacker spaces run by individuals that were still going last I checked.

The pandemic hit them pretty hard of course.


👤 nrfulton
All of the hackerspaces I've been to in the past 15 years are still around:

St. Louis: https://archreactor.org/

Pittsburgh: https://hackpgh.org/

Boston (albeit bummed they left their Somverville location): https://www.artisansasylum.com/

Many undergraduate-focused higher ed institutions have copied the makerspace/hackerspace model, primarily as an amenity for students. These are, in some cases, clopen to the public (sic). Public libraries have also copied the model.

Reviewing the data, AFAICT:

1. The hackerspace-as-business model largely didn't work.

2. The community-run 501(c)3 model remains viable in mid-sized cities.

3. Organizations like hacker spaces have a really hard time of it in larger cities, mostly because of rent.

4. In places that are too rural or too expensive to support hackerspaces, other institutions often provide partial solutions which are not hackerspaces per se but offer similar amenities.

Given that the primary barrier seems to be real estate, I am honestly mildly surprised that major donor hasn't tried to seed a legacy by copying the Carnegie Library formula but for hackerspaces. Seems like a much better legacy-building project than adding an extra half bajillion to a university endowment or starting yet another charter school experiment.


👤 seltzered_
Might be worth searching for:

- TechShop and it's fall - I remember one person arguing hackerspaces may be better run as a nonprofit model.

- The rise of small-scale maker capabilities within public institutions like libraries. I considered signing up for a maker space last year and it made more sense to pay for a second library that happened to have a good maker lab.

- The rise of cheaper or more accessible prototype manufacturing (e.g. pcbway , sendcutsend, etc.).

- The other threads trying to save spaces, like this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32245086 (2022)


👤 sircastor
Aside from community (which is incredible important), Hackerspaces are a method of tool-sharing. In the last decade, many of the popular tools that used to live exclusively at a Hackerspace can be now be found in schools, libraries, and homes: 3D Printers, lasercutters, electronics toolkits, etc. And 3 years of pandemic isolation meant that people weren't able to show up anyway.

One of my favorite spaces (though distant from where I live) - Metrix Create:Space - shut down down in 2018 in part because people didn't have as much of a reason to show up [1]

[1] https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2018/08/tech-junkies-and-...


👤 drusepth
I ran a small one in Missouri and have a few friends that ran ones here and there over the years.

The two big reasons I and my friends don't run them anymore: rent costs and COVID.


👤 __turbobrew__
A large local hackerspace in my city simply went broke over covid. Real estate and operating costs got more expensive and the business model couldn’t keep up. Unfortunately just piling a bit of cash between your friends can no longer get you a dingy commercial space to hang out.

👤 rlayton2
Ballarat Hackerspace member checking in here.

Hackerspaces require ongoing work and support. They aren't great businesses, but are great community spaces. To that end, you need an ongoing commitment of people to provide their time, resources, and effort.

We are extremely lucky in Ballarat that we have such a group of committed members, as well as very generous sponsorship. We've paid that back through ongoing community involvement and releasing many free resources, but we are lucky to be in that position.


👤 karmicthreat
They kind of came to be when the Bush financial meltdown happend. Unemployment was getting high in the late 00's. People were trying to develop new skills or build cottage industries. It feels like there is less of a hustle with all that now.

Plus makerspaces were just difficult to make viable and really you are probably better off spending that time on any other endeavor.

A group of us out here tried starting one in West Michigan and it sputtered along for a while. Financials and interest were never able to balance out. The Geek Group out here did a little "better" but the owners and volunteers there basically burned themselves out constantly. Then the founder got nailed for bitcoin crimes and that was the end.


👤 dotnet00
At my university, they already had the hackerspace locked down under all sorts of training sessions that needed to be scheduled and attended to be allowed access, then when covid came around they started by canceling all trainings, then eventually shut the space down entirely citing covid.

Now that things have reopened they simply never brought it back.


👤 astrange
Like every other issue in American cities, poor land use means you can never afford to have anything except what was already there.

I feel like I read a story about running one in the Bay that was just about having to deal with crustpunks and people having sex in the machine rooms.

Although I think libraries have equipment like 3D printers these days.


👤 solarkraft
What do you mean what happened? "Most are gone"? Do we live in different realities or just different places?

Every major European city I visit has its own, or multiple, nice hackerspaces. Often smaller cities as well. Most/many of them are coming out of the pandemic more enthusiastically than before.


👤 ogou
I've been a paid member of 3 hacker spaces and a couple of niche creative communities over 20 years or so. There was a time when people were actually interested in experimenting, tinkering, and holding workshops. I think that has been replaced by hustle culture. I saw a lot of shops turn into laser cutter and C & C focussed fabrication shops. People were using the equipment to run under the table sign shops and Etsy production lines. They would book the equipment for 6-8 hour blocks and pay a premium. Indie users could never get a slot and learners were even more frustrated. There was rarely a density of users in there at the same time because everything was booked. The actual community just faded away. The infrastructure of shared resource communities got exploited by people who are purely motivated by money.

Another challenge is governance. Managing a volunteer organisation can be tricky, especially if a few get paid for various things. Passionate people burn out and leave. That leaves a management vacuum that is easily exploited by people with an agenda. I watched one shop get completely taken over by political issues and the original mission was left behind for identity focus. It was a real bummer.

The only ones that seem to survive have a strong professional management core and strict monetary oversight.


👤 rendx
It seems like most people have given up on the idea of community, sharing, and collective action, and prefer to take pills or other substances against the resulting depression/anxiety/loneliness.

Many comments here confirm this attitude, where what they see in spaces is reduced to "shared access to tools". Nobody wants to put in the effort just to have the majority be leeches.


👤 mcint
I spent Saturday, Sunday, and part of Friday tabling at Maker Faire for Hacker/Maker-spaces[1] and for Noisebridge[2]. With some other folks who tabled all of last weekend too.

There are many! Also, more importantly, other institutions have taken up ideas from them and offer tools and services to address the same needs. Libraries and colleges in many communities host makerspace tools, tool libraries

The maker movement has taken off, Etsy, home crafting, and sharing and selling projects at all varient of levels of polish,

Finding like-minded individuals, for all manner of interests, is possible through meetups.

I suppose, they've unbundled. I would say: look closer, they're maybe more present than ever, but in parts, and adapted in ways that best complement the psychological demographics of the places they serve.

[1]: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/List_of_Hacker_Spaces [2]: https://noisebridge.net/


👤 RecycledEle
They cost money.

Humans are only so charitable. At some point the cost of fixing what is broken in a hacker space is contrasted against a car repair (or something) and the hacker space looses.

This is compounded by the fact that the people who can responsibly use a hacker space usually own the tools or can get them cheap. Those who really want the hacker space have no clue that their incorrect use of the tool will destroy it.

I am amazed that any publicly available hacker spaces survived the first week.

I ran a hacker space in a school at my last employer. They never had a clue how much time and money went into the hacker space. When I left they asked if I wanted the stuff. They could not understand that two weeks after I left it was all broken, and had no value.


👤 koromak
William Osman and Allen Pan commented on it in a recent-ish podcast, Allen used to run a space.

Basically, the politics of the situation is impossible. Maintaining a space like that costs an incredible amount of money and time. You'd hope that the community could pitch in together, but you always end up with a single person being the primary patron, spending their own time and money, while others abuse the space and the machines for themselves.

The only spaces that seem to have survived are ones that gets large grants from some institution like a university or local government, and therefore can be run like a business, with leadership and staffing.


👤 eddiezane
denhac is alive and well! We had our 15th anniversary party earlier this month and recently crossed 350 members. We're entirely volunteer run with no paid employees.

I currently serve as vice-chair of the board. I joined right before COVID and my focus has been helping get policies and processes in place to continue to help us scale. We've seen pretty rapid growth post COVID and are seeing ~10 new members a month.

Happy to answer any questions (when I wake up).

Be sure to stop and say hi If you're ever in Denver, CO!

https://denhac.org/


👤 clausecker
In Germany, they are alive and well with new hackerspaces being founded frequently. There was a pretty big slog due to the Corona restrictions, but it's slowly all coming back.

👤 syndicatedjelly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

The most sustainable models I've seen have these features:

- Access to the physical space is free for non-members only during restricted time periods

- A small monthly membership fee is required to access the space during other hours

- Mandatory training is required for any complex/expensive equipment (laser cutters, 3d printers, welding equipment)


👤 _spduchamp
We got married, had kids, and a pandemic. Though under utilization was a long running problem before all that.

As someone who spent many years as a volunteer at a couple spaces, there were a lot of lonely nights of nobody showing up. Getting adults off the couch and out for an evening of nerding out with free access to laser cutters, 3D printers, and well equipped electronics workstations is more challenging than one would imagine.


👤 mikewarot
PS:1 in Chicago is still going strong.

[1] https://pumpingstationone.org/


👤 duchenne
ASMBLY in Austin is doing well. Lots of machines/space/people.

https://asmbly.org


👤 unit_circle
Sector67 is still healthy! They have a smart, incredibly dedicated and frugal BDFL who got them through some lean times.

I think in general it only works if there is a strong community / third place thing going. I always saw that as their biggest offering--a way to get out of the house without drinking or spending money. The making / hacking thing is just something to enjoy together.


👤 ja27
Mine (Tampa Hackerspace) is alive and reasonably well.

COVID was a big drag but we clamped down on expenses and had built up a nest egg in case of emergencies so the financial hit didn't do us in. It really wiped out a lot of the social aspects of the community and we're still struggling to get those back.

Rent hurts but we were lucky to lock in a long-term contract with a fixed annual percentage increase. It's still by far our biggest expense.

My opinion and experience is that a makerspace / hackerspace can only succeed with at least one person that's nearly 100% dedicated to running it, mostly without pay. The founder(s) probably have 5-7 years before they totally burn out so unless they've found and built up some others that are just as dedicated, it's hard to sustain a space.


👤 shadoxx
Hive13 in Cincinnati seems to be flourishing in all regards! The core membership and leadership has always taken the organization seriously, and that attitude has helped them curate and sustain membership for over a decade now. I just checked their financials (the entire org is open), and it seems like the formula they have continues to sustain their bank account and membership numbers. I think that in general, hackerspaces haven't really gone anywhere. Like most organizations, sometimes they fail due to no fault of their own, or leadership decides to pivot to a more sustainable model - as some have mentioned here a more "WeWork" model. The hackerspaces/makerspaces are still there. You just have to look!

https://hive13.org/


👤 ValentineC
I'm involved in the Singapore hackerspace.

I think our main problem was that once we had a comfortable core base of members a few years ago, we stopped recruiting more because some of us were afraid that bad people would join as members and none of us would have good enough reasons to kick them out.

When the pandemic hit, some of our members moved on with their lives — they moved back overseas, got married, bought their own places, etc. That caused our membership revenue to take quite a hit.

We made the mistake of moving during the pandemic because we thought that we could save on rent, but the new place turned out to be highly unpopular among those that didn't speak up (it was bigger and cheaper, but there were more flights of stairs to climb). More people left.

Newcomers tend to have a very transactional view of the space. Some people and groups continue to exploit the space because it's "cheap". A bunch seem to be quite happy to pay their membership dues and leave a mess after they're done, because some of the rooms don't get used very much, and enough time passes in between so we don't really know who we need to give behavioural feedback to. We've had people use the space as a hostel because they "tend to work late at night", and an "open source" group thinking that they could share access credentials among their own members because they paid slightly more than a usual membership subscription for one single month (we don't have a group membership tier).

Not enough people want to take long-term ownership over the space now — many think that a hackerspace director is also the space manager, and the person that's always around to fix things up and clean up messes. Creating a culture where members are ideally empowered to take charge of the environment is difficult.

I guess the overarching problem is that it's hard to get an active community going again without critical mass, and expect a bunch of newcomers to contribute significant amounts of ownership and money towards maintaining the space.


👤 jacknews
The economics only really work if you're also a co-working space, and now everyone works at home ...

👤 CapstanRoller
The same reason you no longer see artist spaces or other hubs of creative activity: real estate prices.

Cheap commercial real estate is really hard to find. It's no longer viable to get a little warehouse on the edge of town and turn it into something cool.


👤 samtho
Most traditional hackerspaces either went defunct or pivoted more towards coworking. The allure is pretty obvious: way higher margins. No tools to maintain, no giant safety concerns, just need tables, chairs, and vending. Also, people (or rather companies) who are willing to pay for coworking usually have more resources than “makers” who do not have the equipment or space at home to house projects.

Tech shop tried this coworking model on a makerspace, and we known how it turned out. While it had some internal problems (from what I’m aware), it was never going to be sustainable because, at the prices they were charging, those who could afford it could usually afford some sort of desktop version of what they used tech shop for, except for maybe the water jet and plasma cutters. It was a self service machine shop that required you to invest your time in training to be able to even utilize, and no real community experience to speak of. It became a lot of people doing professional work, a few hours of machine time each per week, and they would go home.

But all this is to say that a makerspace (nor a coworking space for that matter) is a hackerspace automatically, that titled is earned. The point at which a shared space like this becomes a hackerspace is the point where it becomes “cool”, where the community has reached critical mass, events and meetups can happen periodically, and it becomes a hub for the community.

Most hackerspaces that went under recently will have claimed it was because the pandemic and lockdowns, but those events were merely the catalyst to their demise. A lot of people in this thread posit that the community is nice or at least important, I disagree.

The hackerspace is the community.

Hackerspaces that could not keep up with rapid community attrition during the pandemic post-lockdown were left them resource-constrained, unable to keep up with financial commitments. Most in this position chose to close. The community (more specifically the community members’ network) provides the stability as nearly all opportunities, grants, donations, and other contributions originate from people who built or are active participants in the community. An actively shrinking community effectively lobotomizes the hackerspace, leaving nothing more than an empty shell.

Coworking spaces are for those who want to play office (WeWork, HackerDojo)

Makerspaces are glorified tool shares (TechShop)

A true hackerspace is a community space for those who are curious, creative, and passionate about doing things just because they think it’s interesting or cool.


👤 matthewfelgate
Anyone in Surrey, UK, we have just moved our MakerSpace to the Farnham/Aldershot border and it is very active:

https://www.shmakerspace.org/


👤 thomasreggi
Fat Cat Fab Lab in NYC is great and still has classing going: https://fatcatfablab.org/classes

I do wish there was more of them though.


👤 tynan
Vegas, a city with very high quality of life and reasonable real estate prices, has SYN Shop for $50/mo

https://synshop.org/


👤 thinkio
I went to one in Birmingham a couple of times but it was boring and the people who used it were tedious and condescending. Not sure what I was expecting but it wasn't that.

👤 tomcam
Not enough members, broken equipment, too expensive

👤 dehrmann
I wonder if it's that the people go who to these places tend to like to build for themselves and tinker rather than build with a customer in mind (nothing wrong with that), and similar people run the spaces in a similar way, so they're run more like hobbies than businesses.

👤 tetsuhamu
They're still around.

If you can't find the kind you're looking for, you can make one!


👤 Tabular-Iceberg
The one in my town shifted focus from hackerspace to Antifa-adjacent sex club.

The core founders who put in all the work to keep the space going either got squeezed out, got jobs and social obligations, or straight up died.


👤 rickcarlino
We’re doing just fine here in the Midwest. Come visit us if you’re in the Chicago suburbs. https://www.Fox.build

👤 nshkr
Helped start a space long ago. It struggled to stay afloat and eventually was subsumed by the local uni. Now, my dream of a modern hs is limited by lack of funds and..space.

👤 aendruk
Same question for LUGs.

👤 j0hnyl
They are expensive to run and don't make any money.

👤 btbuildem
https://foulab.org/ is alive and well!

👤 mdtrooper
And the hacklabs? In Madrid (Spain), now there is one alive.

👤 samtho
I was involved in makerspaces for a while. While I have not given up on them, I will admit that I have become thoroughly disillusioned with the idea.

Real estate is expensive and a makerspace should be near public transport (which will likely be closer to the city center) but should be able to to facilitate some parking and/or transfer of large items to/from a vehicle. Cheap real estate does come in varieties that support the above.

Most makerspaces carelessly target people to pay membership and nothing else. This creates a membership base that primarily goes to the space for their projects and goes home. This kind of member will drop the membership the moment they realize they can just buy the one or two machines they need and keep it at home (see techshop). This becomes a treadmill very quickly. Makerspaces need to focus on building a community of people who have the tools at home and choose to work there because is a great place to collaborate, but the problem here is that those people don’t have a ton of disposable income (or at least reliably recurring income) to spend on a membership. Leadership needs to balance the financial sustainability motive with the community sustainability one.

A makerspace staring up needs:

* to be a nonprofit

* good value for rent

* one to two years of runway in the bank

* founding members who can work from the makerspace

* a set of tools that are more difficult to have at home

* night events that happen several times per week

Basically, you need a lot of money, patience, and City buy-in helps a lot. Municipalities should be lining up to give money to people who want to manage theses sorts of community spaces, they are innovation and educational centers that can create an absurd amount of value for the relatively small investment. Usually it’s difficult to fill a community space with smart, competent people who actually want to help instead of grifters, sales people, and those who lack curiosity.

The best experiences feel like an eternal September, and the bad ones just feel like accelerated enshitification. How do you attract people that want to spend their time being part of a community and dissuade those who are looking to only consume resources? I think a lot of spaces fail because they rely too much on paying members who never become part of the community and will drop the expensive subscription when it becomes convenient for them to do so.

My vision for a makerspace is one where anyone can use it for free, you can become a member for some money, and those we want to stick around, we pay a small amount to stay. Using tools that are relatively safe should be mostly self certification. Tools that’s cause injuries or are expensive should require training or you should just send a job in (CNC mill). The actual real estate needs to be held by a trust and should be available to the makerspace as long as they are active.


👤 dangerface
Covid

👤 cvccvroomvroom
Fads come and go. Too many people just wanted to create an elitism to lord over others or consume a movement than do anything productive, creative, and interesting as few did. I left for good when I discovered they promised to give to charity and gave nothing. Cheap, privileged, selfish, clueless, trash people.