HACKER Q&A
📣 taubek

How much of unlimited PTO do you use?


If you have unlimited PTO how much of it do you actually use? I can see how unlimited PTO can work if you are working on projects - you take time off between projects. But what if you are a team lead or if your job is infrastructure related? Do you have a team mate that covers for you and then you cover some other person when needed?


  👤 feoren Accepted Answer ✓
It's all bullshit. When my company switched to "flexible time off", they also instated an annual goal for number of hours billed, and surprise surprise: to hit the annual goal, you have to take basically ZERO time off. Previously we earned 2 to 4 weeks depending on seniority. Now it's zero. You cannot take time off and also hit your goal unless you work tons of overtime. It's all fucking bullshit and I'd be surprised if it's legal.

When in doubt, if some corporate executive wants to do it, 99% of the time it's to absolutely fuck you over as hard as possible. Corporate leadership at most companies in the U.S. are parasitic insects existing solely to suck the blood out of the company until their next spawning cycle when they sprout wings and fly off looking for another victim. Never doubt it.


👤 dougmwne
What an incredibly sad question. People need breaks and rest. If you don’t get it for long enough, you will burn out. If your company isn’t taking your need to rest seriously, you should find a new job.

Unlimited PTO is mostly a scam. PTO had a real monetary value as part of a compensation package. Many companies will pay it out in cash when you leave. If PTO is “unlimited “ it basically means the company has decided to not compensate you with PTO. Since no one is “owed” PTO everyone starts treating it like something they don’t deserve and the company develops a culture of not taking time off.

Of course a company’s leadership could still strongly encourage time off in an “unlimited “ situation, but the easiest way to do that is to actually compensate people with PTO!


👤 maccard
I live in the UK with an unlimited PTO system. My partner works for a local company, so I ballpark try and match hers, but take an extra week or two per year depending. It's somewhere in the region of 40 days per year, plus the "holiday" closures.

I'm a lead _and_ I manage infrastructure. If you're a lead and your team can't handle you being out for a week then you need to spend more time leading and less time doing. Being out for longer requires active planning.


👤 TheAceOfHearts
If a company really believed in Unlimited PTO they would specify and require a minimum amount of PTO for all workers. That way everyone is able to take PTO without it feeling like they're shirking any duties. People in leadership positions should also visibly be taking PTO and setting an example for their workers.

👤 simmschi
I'm not sure where you live, but 25 to 30 days seem to be the ballpark for a healthy life.

Here in Germany the minimal number of vacation days that have to be granted (by law) is 20 days, but it's rare to have that few days in knowledge worker positions.

Unless you're the CTO you should not really worry too much about a vacation replacement, isn't this your bosses responsibility?

Btw don't burn out by not taking vacation. Life is short. You will regret this when you get older.


👤 Volundr
A previous job had unlimited "dto" (discretionary time off). Before I accepted the job I told my manager I was currently getting 5 weeks PTO and asked if that would be inline with the expectation. He told me he saw no issue with me taking that much, or even somewhat more. Sure enough he never turned down a time off request. The closest he even came was making sure that someone was available to be on call thanksgiving and Christmas weeks.

It's not always bullshit. I actually kind of regret leaving that job for more money and the unlimited time off was a big factor. I went to only having a few weeks, accrued over the year and ended up having some major family issues that lead to me budgeting my PTO. I could've always taken unpaid time but I would never have even thought twice about taking the time with the DTO.


👤 fullspectrumdev
The company I work for instituted unlimited PTO recently.

It’s annoying, because under the previous system if I worked a weekend or public holiday, I’d get an extra concrete day to use. Now I don’t.

So by law in Ireland I have to take minimum 20 days PTO, and interestingly, there’s a little known rule that says I’ve to take 2 weeks off in a row as part of that.

Which I never twigged until recently when comparing the employee handbook to employment laws for fun. This rule is a blessing and a curse tbh.

This year so far I have taken about two actual days off, and I usually work on public holidays because I simply forget when they are.


👤 kwyjibo_hunter
At my current job the unlimited PTO has afforded me the ability to take more care of my health compared to previous jobs (with or without unlimited PTO). I’m much more inclined to take sick days and/or mental health days when I need them.

I also have to take a day off almost monthly for medical treatments. At a standard US job, I’d probably end up with 3 days of total annual PTO leftover, and I’d probably have to save the “sick days” (which don’t stick around too easily with my health issues).

At my current job, it only works because they’re not preventing us from taking the time (for now).


👤 re-thc
> But what if you are a team lead or if your job is infrastructure related? Do you have a team mate that covers for you and then you cover some other person when needed?

It shouldn't be on you to organize cover. At any level, the level above should have considered this. You can't be a single point of failure - well except for small startups perhaps.

And agree with the other comments that unlimited PTO is a way to reduce PTO or the liability to have to pay for your PTO should you leave / get sacked.


👤 Jemaclus
I've worked for four different companies that had PTO. At each one, I would basically take somewhere around 4-6 weeks off per year, depending. As a Director-level, I encourage everyone to take vacation whenever they need/want to, and as long as their work is getting done and they have someone to cover for them while they're out, I couldn't care less how much time they take off. I'm not incentivized to keep you from taking time off, so it's weird to me that anyone is difficult about this at all.

I've never told anyone they can't take time off (even with limited PTO), and I don't intend to start now.


👤 david-gpu
Having unlimited PTO and coping with absences at work are orthogonal problems.

When you are going on vacation you can pick somebody in your team as the to-go person and communicate that fact to them, to your manager, and add that information to your automated "out of the office" emails.


👤 simoncion
> But what if you are a team lead or if your job is infrastructure related? Do you have a team mate that covers for you and then you cover some other person when needed?

If management doesn't have the people to handle their employees taking the leave that they're entitled to, __that's not your problem__. Your responsibility is to announce your planned absence in advance, write and distribute any hand-off materials required as your planned absence approaches, and then take your leave at the announced time.


👤 eb0la
I work for a company with unlimited PTO and it is a double-edged sword.

Before I joined one team member had less than 7 vacation days in a year, and she's working in a country with less than 10 public holidays a year.

It is _very_ easy not to get vacation because you can have all you want.

Now everyone in my department MUST take at least what's legal on the country they're based.


👤 Falkon1313
It varies. I don't really keep count of it. Usually a couple of vacations a year, plus whatever sick days I really don't feel like working, and the occasional long weekend. Also it's not unusual to start late or knock off early if not productive. Why waste time writing bugs I'll just have to waste time reverting tomorrow?

Most people in my company do about the same. Some take more, or structure it more compactly, a couple take less.

As for infrastructure and team leads, that comes down to people and process. With standard processes and checklists that everyone's familiar with (and as much automated as possible), and with people frequently communicating and reviewing and discussing stuff, then if someone's out other people should be able to step in and pick up what they would normally do. And with the right people, they will.


👤 polotics
I left a job with a nice little packet of money for all of the accumulated overtime from a few years of hard work. Who would want to not get paid for their efforts? Do the people deciding you shouldn't, not expect to get paid for theirs? Where is the class action lawsuit on this?

👤 g5095
Hey this might piss you off as Americans, but every US company I've worked for has respected my Australian minimum working conditions (2 weeks sick, 4 weeks holiday, etc etc) .. They will do what they can get away with, vote in someone with the balls to change your system.

👤 mattbgates
My company went from PTO to FTO a few years ago... took away 5 days from us. I'd had 35 days. So ultimately, it averaged out to about 30 days per year.

Eventually, I convinced an my supervisor, who also lost her days, to restore at least two more days since it wasn't fair to lose days being at my company for over a decade... and then furthermore.. they brought back 2 or 3 more days they call "wellness days" in which you're supposed to take off to relax. And now it's back to nearly 35 days.

I tend to use only about a week or two at random for most of the year, taking a day here and there, and towards the summer or later months, I take week-long vacation days.


👤 spondyl
I work at a place that has unlimited PTO. I quite enjoy my job and have a nice amount of balance.

That said, I definitely still have the mindset of "I'll save all of my ammo for the final boss" which is dumb because it's unlimted.

Mostly I just figure I'll think about using it next week and then it gets easy to push back.

I suppose if I hated my job, or it wasn't fulfilling and needed the escape, it would be a different story mind you.

That said, I know there are some supposed to be some studies floating around that people with unlimited PTO tend to take less leave.


👤 moomoo11
3 days a month usually. There’s usually a national holiday each month which gives one day off. Add a few more random Fridays.

We have on call rotation and plan our work really well, so it’s never been a problem when someone is on pvt or having an illness etc. there’s always someone who can cover and they know they can expect the same in return.

You should use your days off. It’s not our fault we live on such a beautiful amazing planet with awesome people to spend time with.


👤 cassepipe
PTO here stands for Paid Time Off. You're welcome.

👤 Awelton
About 4-5 weeks a year. 'Unlimited' pto is a scummy practice and they wouldn't do it unless it was in their best interest. I have enough to deal with in life without losing sleep over irl dark patterns, so I take off when I feel like I need it. If they don't like that then they should go back to a set number.

👤 0xbadc0de5
Between 4 - 6 weeks. Pretty much the same as before I had unlimited PTO. Only now, I make a conscious effort to aim toward more rather than less since unlimited PTO is no longer factored into severance (if ever applicable), so why waste it. I pull more than my fair share, when I need a break, I take a break.

👤 nathants
a minimum of 2 weeks every quarter.

longer if changing employers, moving, or building interesting things.

it’s ok to perform mission critical roles for a business.

it’s not ok to let a business abuse your health by taking a hard dependency on your 24/7/365 availability.

just like with software systems: redundancy and failover. not easy. not optional.


👤 softwaredoug
I use about 3-4 weeks.

But yeah the reality is you probably don’t want to be an outlier on either extreme. I've been nagged by my boss to take more vacation as I haven’t taken enough yet. Rarely I’ve been directly nagged about taking too much, but I don’t want to look like a slacker to my team.


👤 willio58
My job has a hybrid approach. We get a certain number of weeks guaranteed. If you want to take more you can, it just has to be approved and mainly the thing is it can’t affect your main project deadlines

👤 nolok
"Unlimited Holiday/PTO/Whatever" is a wolf in sheep clothing when you realize the dynamic and psychology of it.

Here is a serie of fun facts about paid time off in many parts of europe, and specifically in France where I'm at, that can help you see the issues :

One, we have a defined number of days, and in fact everytime you see it mentionned it is in weeks. There is no competition, official or unofficial or in you head, or in your manager's head come promotion time about who took more or less.

Two, we have a defined "holiday period" covering several months, where employee are encouraged to take their holiday, and HAVE to take their main holiday (at least 12 continuous working days, so excluding sundays and saturdays), so there is no issue of "it's not the right time" etc etc ... The employer retain a final say in granting holidays and which order people go (to avoid complete service disruption etc ...) but again, any refusal especially in the main holiday period must be justified BY THE EMPLOYER. PS: this is what causes the funny "the whole of France is not working in August" thing.

Three, your days off can only be "pushed back" one year, after that you lose them, so you're very encouraged to take them and not accumulate them years after years, and there is a clear value being shown to you of "you lost X days worth Y €" instead of a vague "you could have".

Four, if you leave the company (either on your own decision or being fired) they need to pay them to you, and it's the biggest expense when ending someone's contract, so employer have a big incentive to keep employee's available day count low, the way to do that being make them go on their holiday.

Five, if the employee doesn't take his holiday during the year, and ends up having a mental breakdown or whatever, it is considered the employer's fault, you are supposed to make sure your employee take their holiday, and yes you can force them to take their holiday in a two year period at the most.

The entire system is built around the knowledge that if you simply say "people can", then you make it a competition between them in front of the boss, so instead we make the ones who don't take holidays a problem.

Now, as a company owner, at first it's scary (oh shit, we're small scale and some employees are going to leave for three weeks, how will the company ever function), but you quickly learn happy people plan to rejoin their job and want it to be not stressfull, so they plan their work in advance, they ask their collegues to handle what calls or emails or whatever need to be done when away, etc ... You essentially never have that issue.

And then you learn the best trick ever to handle stress at work : free, employer sanctionned day off are the employee's equivalent of turning it off and on again. Sometime it's a "you can take a couple day off" and let them decide, sometime it's "you know, take the end of the week ... no it's not a question, don't be there tomorrow" so again force their hand to be off, and you get a much better environnement of work.

Your first impressions as an employer is that holidays are sort of a gift, or a regulation or whatever. If you pay attention, you quickly learn holidays are not a gift, they're a way for your employee to just ... fucking function properly ? Be liberal with it, you don't need to lose sight of work that need to be done, and if you treat your employee as humans you quickly see that they understand that too.

Sorry for the much longer than planned comment.


👤 jxf
I used 31 days last year. At my firm, if you don't use a minimum of 15 days, your manager is dinged. So it's more like "flexible PTO but you have a minimum".

👤 samuli
I tend to take four weeks in the summer, one week in fall, and one in winter. So six weeks a year in total. I live in Europe.

👤 Fire-Dragon-DoL
About 5 weeks per year, in 2 chunks of 2 weeks and the other week is a bunch of "one-offs"

👤 clnq
2-3 days a year. Reasons are already discussed in many other comments and threads.

👤 _a_a_a_
Don't tell me what PTO is, I find it more exciting that way /s

👤 aprdm
3-6w per year. Not more than 3w at a single time usually..

👤 jelavich
Never enough

👤 slyall
If you take PTO then you are supposed to tip 20% of your pay back to the person that is covering for you. Depending on the job some of the money might be shared with others.

I understand that in some Bay Area companies the rate is now 25%