Did improving conversation and listening skills win you anything big?

> Is that actually true?

Yes. Conversing with people requires some amount of empathy as you must consider someone else's words in order to be in a state of listening. It's not distinct from "real life". _It is_ your life.

> "... win you anything big"

It's just my impression, and I could be mistaken, but this sounds overly pragmatic. Living life this way leads to getting entrenched in local maxima. It's better to also consider what others want and find compromise. What you sacrifice in absolute immediate gains, you exchange for longer term possibilities and networking.

On the flip side, don't burden yourself with responsibilities that don't interest you, and don't compromise with people who won't appreciate it.

All that said, what I "won" is my social life and career which I am grateful for. To answer if it's anything "big" is all relative. It's a big deal to me. There's no need to be braggadocious. Life is what you make it.

I have a huge need to relate, which manifests in constantly interrupting to tell personal anecdotes. It hurt my personal and professional relationships. On the professional level, that was masked by being otherwise competent so I was well into my 30s before I made any changes. On the personal level, it also took me until late 30s to find a partner who called me out on it.

Being able to sit quietly and let the other person speak hugely improved my ability to interject in ways that are relevant and actually increase engagement during conversation. That led to better relationships at home and at work, which led to a better marriage and more influence at work.

I found "Nonviolent Communication" to be a good starter book.

Yes, POWER.

As true power is “the capacity for effect” (if it is not effective, it is not powerful); listening and communicating well makes you more effective as a human being at everything, even when to keep one’s mouth shut!

Better relationships, higher quality personal and professional conversations, are only beginnings.

Do not be one of these people who only think in terms of the utility of others. Being a charming douche isn’t an “improvement”. Listening and communicating well are a qualitative human skill, not just “useful.”

For the context: I am an introvert. I can tell you from my perspective: yes, understanding others and expressing myself well, and, most importantly, learning to not to be afraid of conversations, has a positive impact on the quality of my life.

To this day I still see "conversing" as a skill. It may require a conscious effort. Listening is not a problem and introverts are generally very empathic, but being a part of the conversation is harder. I can feel tired after a party for example, like I was working all day long. But I also enjoy it a lot: it feels wonderful to genuinely connect with people around me, as long as I can recharge afterwards. Familiar situations are much easier, new situations or meeting new people is harder. But all the more important to be able to communicate well: cannot imagine what it would be like to meet a new boss, or a new person on my team, would I not be able to listen to them well and express my thoughts clearly.

I have been fortunate enough to be close friends with three different people that have what I call "people magic". One of them ended up being my significant other so I have been able to closely observe the benefits.

Life becomes easy mode. What's even more interesting is that it's a circular loop, because it's easy mode, they do people magic easier, which makes easy mode all over again.

Here is a list of observable and repeatable things I have witnessed multiple times:

* Everyone smiles at you, they are genuinely happy to see you (even strangers)

* You can always get help for anything at any time

* What you say, even if it's wrong will be accepted as true (unless you are wrong too frequently...but people magic people don't do that)

* Everyone will gravitate towards you no matter where you are

* A huge amount of choice when it comes to partners or choice of friends. (I joke with my SO that if we divorced, she has about 15 people that would date her instantly)

* People go out of their way to please you almost to an irrational level (things like acquaintances giving you $50 for something random, waitresses telling you what to avoid, cashiers telling you if something is good or not)

* Everyone opens up at you, again to a deep level. My SO knows so many "secrets" from so many people, things their partners don't know, things that they have barely accepted

* Raises and promotions all the time. This is cyclical, everyone likes you, you get promoted, customer/clients/coworkers like you enough to tell your boss, repeat

I can keep going.

I'm an introvert socializing is hard at times, but I won't lie people with true people magic play on a different level. They almost bypass all constraints of society with ease. It's all because they know how to talk and listen to people. People magic people do one more thing though, they have the ability to make you feel special. It's done in a genuine manner...that's how they get you.

Something perhaps minor and obvious to most folks, but I started to say nothing when I never had an answer, or at least initially. I found this played out in very interesting ways, quite often I get into conversations around what is the best approach to take for some engineering problem and someone would make a claim, that did not sound right or even plain did not make any sense, but my imposter syndrome liked to paint everyone as smarter than me, so I would feel I had to speak to claim I understood what they were saying. I started to let five seconds tick by and tell myself its ok if I don't have an answer. What I found what would happen is the other individual would get enough room to reflect over what they just stated and the attention fell directly onto them. They would invariably start to discredit or defend what they had just claimed, rather than diffuse it for them.

If your conversation style is not well-oiled people will hate you without even knowing why.

As someone who struggles with human interactions, I found the following epiphanies to have caused the largest improvements:

- Talking about something boring you both did together is much better than talking about something awesome you did alone.

- Tone of voice and facial expression are more important than the words you are saying.

Man, where do I even start?

Friendship, love, business and having an overall better time, day in, day out.

Improving my understanding of the social interaction between people and how to become a more enjoyable person is the most important thing I accomplished in my life.

There is a knowledge project podcast /w Jim Collins that answers this question indirectly.

https://fs.blog/knowledge-project-podcast/jim-collins-2/

Long story short: Happiness is derivable mainly either through relationships or transactions (can read this as opportunities you create).

The problem: Deriving happiness through transactions doesn't scale beyond you and your abilities and your time. Deriving happiness through relationships does scale.

Coming back to your question: conversation and listening skills are relevant to both. There is more certainty in using these skills towards transactions (think sales). But you should be putting these skills towards relationship building as well. Mainly because other people may be (and often are for strong relationships) happy to help you out for nothing or very little in return mainly because of a trust that if you're able to you will help them for some future endeavors / dilemmas. This can be seen as an investment towards leverage (think sales growth).

The podcast doesn't take the view I wrote here. The podcast conversation is more interpersonally oriented in its view, but the conversation is oriented towards CEOs.

Yes. My conversation & listening skills were abysmal for various reasons. In my 20s I've tried very hard to become a better listener. This has led to:

1. meeting my wife

2. befriending great people

3. Probably a big factor getting my first engineering job

The "trick", at least for me, is to genuinely care about people when talking to them. It's tough at the start, just like trying to use atrophied muscles for the first time. For a while being caring absolutely drained me, but you do get better at it apparently.

Jesus, yes of course. From girlfriends to jobs. Communication is everything in life. Ask people if they'd want to work with a genius who can't communicate vs an average joe who can, and 99% will say the latter.

Listening is the key to selling - I had that drilled in to me by a really awesome sales expert. And learning to sell saved my startup.

In a 15 minute demo we spend 10 minutes finding the prospects key pain point. Then the demo is 4 minutes of showing how our product makes their exact/specific pain go away. And then 1 minute of signing them up onto a 7 day free trial.

As you learn to understand people better, life becomes vastly easier. Have you ever misread a social situation? Accidentally hurt someone? Not realize what the person you're negotiating with really wants? All these things become easier as you get better at listening, emphasizing, and understanding.

I do find improving my communication skills has shown me that it's a science which helped me come to terms with some uncomfortable truths.

One truth is that sometimes, you'll have to get used to lots of different people (some who may not like you for all sorts of reasons) and learning to work around that has really helped me collaborate with people who a hard to get on with. Putting a goal in a conversation mentally has really helped with this.

Literally every aspect that improves happiness in life comes over improving your social skills. It's hard to find even a point to start with.

It is a great help in my marriage, which I value more than any job or money.

Some recommended books: how to win friends and influence people (carnegie), crucial conversations, critical conversations, and some specific skills I picked up along the way like listening even beyond the point when it hurts, etc etc. More at my web site (in profile) and in personal notes if interested.

ps: And honesty and the Golden Rule are important!

Because I am more analytical than natural about this (despite decades of effort), I had to make myself a checklist or process list, a list of steps to follow depending on how the conversation goes and what happens. Has been invaluable to me at some times. Fortunately my wife is capable of understanding when I get to the point of needing to use it, and I think she has seen it helps me/us, so that's very good when I remember the things I have studied & decided. The checklist helps when memory and clear thinking break down.

But it takes real hard work & long-repeated practice, which requires commitment and caring for the other as for oneself (or more, sometimes). And is so worthwhile.

Just being observant is a big deal. And genuinely caring about the well-being of others. Some good advice I heard was "get yourself out of the way" (though in a different/better context). So often, just be quiet and let the other person talk, maybe ask questions occasionally for clarification.

I don't get why someone wouldn't be intrinsically motivated to listen to what others have to say.

People are complex, versatile and very unique beings that can teach you so much if you listen to them. Not to mention wanting to know more about the people you are bonding with.

Sure, I have met lot's of self-centered people that expect me to fight for their attention but it is their loss. What is the point in talking if you are not actively listening? You already know what you know. Just write in a dairy or something.

I have worked with extreme extroverts and extreme introverts. The single biggest lesson on communication I have learnt, is that it is better to be heard than not. The opposite lesson to this is “better to leave people thinking, than open your mouth and confirm your ignorance”. That is false, in all my experience those who open their mouths and are willing to make mistakes, iterate on their ideas and be heard, those people go further.

Confirming how people feel by repeating what they've said back to them is the greatest consulting superpower ever.

"So you are worried if this data model is too complex, performance will suffer? And you're doubtful if our product can help without slowing down your existing delivery SLAs."

By understanding them they trust you to respect their wishes and represent them when they're not in the room.

Whenever they think about the things that worry or stress them the most, they'll think of you (this is a good thing when you are essentially paid on being thought of.)

And if you can address not just the actual issues but how they feel about them, the word of mouth happens all by itself. Sometimes they even invite you to their kids' birthdays!

Professional empathy is amazingly effective.

Yes.

It has won me multiple work promotions as it makes me better at dealing with other developers on my team, management, other teams, customers and end users.

Listening and asking the right questions are really underrated skills, and improving your interpersonal skills is just as important for a career as technical ones.

I wouldn't be able to run my own business without a keen perception and a fine attention to detail when talking to clients, their employees, sometimes even their vendors.

This is maybe less true in a more pure, academic/engineering setting where it's all numerics and formulae, but even then, all the thinking work is done by humans, whose thoughts and feelings matter.

I think most of all: It's easier to understand reasons why people might be doing/not doing something if you've taken the time and effort to TRULY listen to them beforehand.

As a sidenote, if interacting with people is about winning/losing for you, there might be some rather serious issues for you to reflect on in how you perceive, build, and maintain relationships with other people.

Good luck!

read https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-De... and after that I almost doubled my salary, also now days I kinda like haggling and selling things that is also big plus.

Read this and changed my way of communicating with people, both at work and with family & friends : https://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Lif...

It makes you realize that everything is not about you (nothing actually is), and shows how you can use empathy to stop taking things personally but really understand what people are trying to say when they're talking to you.

A lot. And in probably every aspect of life. You're more likely to find a partner you actually enjoy. You'll have an easier time finding the job you want. Your friendships will be more authentic. You'll spend more time with the family members you like and probably less time with the ones you don't.

Have you ever spoken to someone and they give you answers that are barely related to what you just said? It's annoying right? You don't really want to speak with those people.

But honestly, I find that most people only REALLY need to learn how to listen. Once you actually listen to what people say before you start putting your answer together will help you learn more and let's the other person know you're actually interested in what they're saying. All other aspects of social interaction will then come on there own. If it's a subject you're not overly interested in, then the conversation will be boring for both sides and that's completely fine too. Trying to be interested in everything everyone says will burn you out and won't help you in the long run.

Just try and be yourself and always authentic.

Improving my conversation and listening skills has definitely helped me in the transition from on-site to remote work. In a remote work environment, clear and effective communication is even more important since there are limited opportunities for face-to-face interaction. By honing my conversation and listening skills, I've been able to build stronger relationships with my colleagues and clients, and ensure that we're all on the same page even when we're not physically together.

If you're looking for some guidance on transitioning from on-site to remote work, I recently came across a really helpful blog article that I think you'll find valuable: https://www.ratherlabs.com/post/transitioning-from-on-site-t...

HN loves to hate "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and while it may be simplistic and trite, the basic premise is true of humanity from the beginning of time: we all want to feel listened to and understood. The ability to listen intently to another person - especially if you violently disagree with what they are saying - and attempt to understand their perspective and background, is an absolute superpower. Not only will that person potentially build a new respect for you, but others around you who observe you making these connections will also raise their estimation of your abilities and skills.

And here's the real magic - often by listening, the speaker will develop a positive notion of you by virtue of the fact that you listened that will enable you to have conversations that would have otherwise been DOA, because now you've created an atmosphere of trust.

I may well be the most social person I know, which is weird because I consider myself to be an introvert. When I need to scratch that itch, I always have a tablet or Kindle and headphones around to isolate.

I can say that it is not pleasant to be around people when the conversation feels forced or awkward. And further that there really aren't any conversational or listening 'skills'. You just talk and listen. If you go read the very best and most selling books on the topic, they all share the same, basic, boring advice. Relax, exercise basic decency such as avoiding commenting on peoples' appearances, fake it until you make it if you have to, and if you're slightly awkward, that's not a big deal. If you've read one of these books, then you've read them all, there's nothing about the basic act of relating to another human being that isn't both discoverable and can be found to be pleasurable.

The two big barriers are fear and ego. All relating 'skill' comes down to dealing with these two things. And to answer your question, there's an immense amount of life improvement that can be had by working on your ego and fear. Instead of taking passive approaches to dealing with interpersonal problems, you can develop assertive ones. You can ask for help more easily. You can stop trying to hold it all up yourself. You can start building up a network of friends, both the sort you go out of your way to spend time with, and also the sort that you share pleasant conversations with whenever you run into each other.

And then finally you can start fixing problems in your relationships. Start having dates without fear, if you're unattached. Share ideas with friends about how to make your spousal relations better. Couples dates. Have neighbors around to help spread the childcare load with so you can go check in with each other and rekindle the romance.

But it starts with the basic here and now act of being present in the moment, caring about the person in front of you, and doing your best to make it a pleasant interaction. Everything else builds on that basic feeling other people have when they're interacting with you, do I like this? If so, then there's always something new on the horizon.

But if you let cynicism, fear and ego get in the way, then people aren't going to enjoy the ordeal of interacting with you. You'll gradually find yourself feeling excluded from the community. And none of these social possibilities will ever find their way to you.

Huge improvement in my marriage.

Thank goodness I started on it before 2020 because we about to go through a lot of challenges together!

I got 2 years of contracting at £525 a day (plus VAT) because I was one of the few people all of the traders, developers and managers could communicate with at a Tier 1 bank. Some refused to talk to each other over various disagreements, some just couldn't communicate with anyone outside their specialty.

In my own experience, listening/empathizing was also boosted by meditation. some young people struggle with empathy because it is never modeled for them. They are dismissed by adults, and then thrust into a school with other young people, which is a highly unnatural environment. They don’t really see adults interact with other adults. So, young people tend to lack empathy or have difficulty controlling/regulating their emotions. All they see are other young people who lack empathy and cannot regulate their own emotions (or sometimes even behavior). As an adult, I found that cultivating empathy was aided by meditation, by listening, and by spending a little time forcing the thought that it ain’t ever really about me.

Yes. People skills will massively increase your luck surface area. Being at the right place at the right time is a lot easier if people tell you about an opportunity before it becomes publicly known.

I don't know about winning anything big per se, but I'm presuming that most of us are nerds who were awkward coming out of school, and became more relaxed in conversation with practice. That is mostly a matter of feeling more at ease with yourself when other people are around. That in turn is a healthy thing in its own right, regardless of the presence or absence of specific material benefits.

One of the biggest "wins" of becoming a good listener is making other people feel they can talk to you. Which I don't think happens that often

It turns out that relationships are the most important aspect of life satisfaction.

Improving skills that improve relationship building have great downstream effects.

There's really not so many situations where speaking is better than listening. Basically you just need to do it a bit to qualify yourself as someone worth talking to, or to give enough info so that the other guy doesn't feel is giving without having someone back, and then it's 100% listening.

Yes. It's probably the most useful skill after reading, writing, and counting.

Yes, there are only upsides to listening better and improving conversation skills. You’ll be more successful in job interviews, more confident in romantic situations (dates), etc.

It won me enjoyable conversations, and the ability to connect with anyone. As well as disdain for those who lack the sentience for this simple skillset.

It won't "win" you anything. However, it gives you ability to convey your arguments more effectively and makes you a decent human being.

I think you can answer your own question. Did you "give" anything to the people who were empathetic and listened to you?

This is like asking "does physical exercise improve your health?" Communication is everything in life.

Does anyone have good readings to improve on conversation and communication skills generally?

Marriage, great kids, lifetime of meeting fascinating people in all walks of life.

It can certainly improve relationships, although it's more effective there when "all parties to the relationship" are interested in being skillful in this department.

How we listen/converse doesn't tell you anything at all about how we "treat" or "empathize" with people in "real life" situations. I listen/converse in a radically different manner when I'm paid to do so. Being skillful in these departments can supercharge sociopathic manipulative persuasion.

I'm not sure how (or why) you are distinguishing between listening/conversing and "real life situations".

We are always unavoidably influencing and being influenced by everything going on around us (and within us). You cannot help but do it, so you may as well do it skillfully. You might even choose to do it ethically. It affects everything that involves interactions with human beings, so for at least a while longer that's going to be "damned near everything".

I simply became more attractive. And I was able to get people to do things.

Internally, improving listening is like using TCP instead of UDP. Important packages will not be lost (Oh! My boss told me I had to deliver this tomorrow, I forgot!). They will arrive to your mind in an ordered way instead of randomly. What you get is a more intense awareness of what the other person is trying to transmit. Obviously there's a bit of garbage-in, garbage-out problem here (if the person you are talking to only spews nonsense, you will be more painfully aware of their nonsense) but in theory at least with a high enough skill you will be able to separate the chaff from the wheat.

Externally, people with high listening skill are perceived as more mature, professional, reliable and trustworthy.

Quick hack for improving listening: just have a notebook and pencil with you all the time. When you talk with a coworker, make it a habit to pull out the notebook and start scratching notes. It might feel a bit "orthopedic" at first, but you will notice that most people don't mind at all. Writing reinforces memory and makes it more difficult to "tune out". I don't write full sentences, most of the time it's just one or two words which would make no sense for anyone but me. I find is an adequate mid-term (~1 week) memory storage space. "What was that ticket number we talked about last Tuesday? (go back a few pages in the notebook) Oh, yeah XO-7435". This is especially easy to do in a remote setting.

Being able to interpret body language and tone is also part of "listening". Those two can modify the same words to mean literally the opposite of what they sound like in a "neutral" tone. If you suspect you have difficulties here (a lot of folks who get into computers have difficulties with this) there's training courses for this kind of thing. Therapy will also work in some cases.

Conversation skills is the opposite - you produce more bits of info, and the bits you produce are of better quality. It's both more efficient and more effective. If you are an introvert or just don't enjoy smalltalk, consider that improving your speech will allow you to talk less with the people you don't want to spend a lot of time talking with. You will be able to move in, deliver the package, and move out.

Effectively communicating with others involves adapting your discourse to the audience. That's where the "empathy" part comes in. When a taxi driver asks me about what I work with, I don't give him the same explanation I give to my mother, and that is different from what I tell people who know about computers.

From the outside: if you communicate better you will also be perceived as more mature and professional. It's a basic quality for a leader. Your name will pop naturally in conversations like "we need a new tech lead, who should we promote from inside the team?".

So yes, it is definitively true that listening and communicating help.

I am afraid I don't have a quick hack for more effective outwards communication. Listening is a good first step that you can improve on your own, but going in the other direction requires ... practice. That requires interaction with other people. I suggest you start improving your communication skills by contacting people who share your same interests. Do you have any hobbies? Are you interested on a programming language? See if there's a local group you can attend, or create your own group if there isn't any.

All.

Every single good thing in my life has come from these skills.

These skills begin and end with caring about your impact on other people. Without this care, or the desire to leave people better than before they met you, these skills are vacuous at best, but more likely psychopathic.