HACKER Q&A
📣 mqp

Why are big tech companies having mass layoffs?


Amazon, Google and Microsoft are clipping 10,000+ people each from their roster. Can someone explain why is this happening?


  👤 mabbo Accepted Answer ✓
Amazon, Shopify, Wayfair, Google, Meta: all of these companies make money because e-commerce exists. The higher the proportion of all sales taking place on e-commerce, the more valuable the companies are. For Google and Meta, it's the advertising portion, but it's still impactful.

If we track online sales as a proportion of all sales over the last 20 years, there's a pretty stable trend of increase. Then COVID hit, lockdowns, and we saw a 5-6 year jump ahead. Big question: How much of this is temporary, and how much is permanent? Maybe people discover that grocery delivery is way better than going to the store and never stop.

Imagine if you bet against it being permanent, and you were wrong? Your company just lost out on a massive opportunity- a CEO that does that would be worried for their job. And if you bet for it being all permanent and are wrong, well, you just have to lay off a few people.

They all bet that this was a permanent 5-year jump-ahead. They were wrong, there was no jump-ahead. Now there's a looming recession. Everyone has too much headcount. And for publicly traded companies, there are shareholders who will demand that something be done to prove you're not going to bankrupt the company.

To minimize the PR hit, everyone quietly announces their layoffs just after someone bigger than them does, so that they aren't the headline in the news tomorrow.


👤 DoingIsLearning
Irrespective of the real reason, I don't buy the argument that these companies are preempting a recession.

Facebook, Amazon, Alphabet, Apple, Microsoft have an insane volume of cash reserves to the tune of hundreds of billions each company.

Unless their are predicting a decade long crisis there is no way this is the real reason staff is getting trimmed, feels more like an excuse rather than a justificatíon at this point.


👤 ergonaught
"Safety in numbers" herd strategy. "Everyone else" is doing it, so they can "get away with it" now without as much "backlash" as they might otherwise experience.

You will also sometimes see people referring to "bets that didn't pan out", but the more accurate term for the situation of having TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE as "bets that didn't pan out" is gross mismanagement and active negligence.

Every one of these CEOs should be out as a result.


👤 bell-cot
Notice how badly the share prices of most such tech firms have fallen in the past year. Investors, Wall Street, and Boards of Directors are for-sure putting loads of pressure on tech firm CEO's to Do Something to fight that trend. Slashing some of the (supposed) payroll bloat that was built up "back when the living was easy" is a great way for a CEO to look like he's Doing Something.

👤 md_
I think the simple answer is that "investors demand it."

Investors may indeed be predicting a recession, and it's probably true that many of these firms overhired. But there's no specific fiscal reason for most of these companies to cut staff--5% the cost of their workforce is not standing in the way of billion-dollar deals (e.g. MSFT/Blizzard) or long-term R&D spending (Meta, whatever you want to say about their Metaverse project).

Bluntly: cutting staff is the new stock buyback.


👤 danpalmer
Short answer: they depend on revenue from businesses, ads, etc, and that is going down or likely to.

Long answer: many people naively think that it's all about the money a company has, and these companies have a ton of money, so why are they laying off people when they could weather through the storm.

While this feels like it should be the case, the answer is that it's a bit more complicated than that. Whether it should be more complicated or not is besides the point, sadly. Business health tends to be measured more in terms of cash flow, and in simple terms, more going out than is coming in is bad, even if you could deal with that for many years.

There's also the difficulty for many of these big multinational companies that their cash reserves might not be in the right place, and moving them might incur significant taxes.

Investors are theoretically investing for the prospect of future returns, and while with growth stocks this is in the form of increased share value, in the long term it's also about dividends which come from profit, and so investors want to see a long term profitable company.

Also worth noting is that while, yes, CEOs are largely compensated in stock and therefore interested in seeing it go up, this is also good for the business in a general sense, as it makes it easier for them to raise money for things by selling stock.

I don't necessarily agree with all of this, I have problems with the taxation issues, and I also think it's a bad thing for many employees, but my general point is that this is complicated and there are reasons for it, even if we might not understand or agree with them.


👤 skizm
I mean if you look at the total number of employees by year, all these companies have still added massively to their headcounts in the last 3-4 years. It is not sustainable to continue adding 20-50k employees per year to your payroll.

👤 gt565k
Cuz a recession is coming and companies are trying to get ahead of it and also playing into it. Also a good time to trim and shutdown entire projects or departments and call it a “layoff”.

But really you can also ask: Why did tech companies hire like 3-4x the amount they are laying off in the last 2-3 years? Why are they mass hiring? The inverse reason is usually why there are mass layoffs.


👤 jollyllama
10 years ago, they had access to cheap credit, offices full of people working hard 8 hours or more, solid product portfolios, no visible limits on growth, and foreign competition was weak.

Fast forward to today. Credit is drying up. Devs feel entitled to WFH, and shorter work days (via WFH) and managers are nervous. Their products have regressed, they are actually worse than 10 years ago. Foreign firms like TikTok are now serious competitors.

Perhaps most disturbing to the C-Suite, once they strip away all of the covid #'s, they can tell growth is or will be declining. It's not just about being revenue positive, it's about the derivative. In this situation it's standard procedure to reign in costs and send a message both to investors and the organization that they want the org to become leaner and meaner. They're not just copying each other, all of these companies are in the same position and this is how execs are trained to act in this situation.


👤 lazulicurio
Irrational investor expectations in a self-reinforcing feedback loop with economic policy decisions driven by core underlying beliefs that speculation can't destroy productive growth (i.e. if you create a bubble that pops, you'll still be net-positive compared to before the bubble) and that speculation is the best way to create growth in a population-constrained market.

👤 spamizbad
Because they're publicly traded companies and the largest shareholders feel technology companies:

1) Are capable of "doing more with less"

2) Have too much headcount

2) Overpay engineers by 2-3x

These views are not unique to Wallstreet shareholders; they are shared by a growing number of tech VCs and "thought leaders" (most notable a16z). The next phase will likely be longer hours for less pay.

The halcyon days are over.


👤 leet_thow
Because it is more expensive to borrow money. Think of it like this, if it costs 1% to borrow money and you can use it to generate a 4% return with a less than efficient operation, the equation makes sense. However when that money is now 4% to borrow, you are forced to increase the efficiency of the operation or shut it down completely.

👤 bryanlarsen
If you do this unilaterally your best employees will rightly interpret the layoff as a sign the good times are over and will jump ship. However, if you do this at the same time as everybody else then your best employees will be less likely to jump ship.

👤 therealbilly
My own theory is that the era of Big Tech firms like Google, etc., is passing or at least evolving. Companies are gaining confidence that they have answers for their needs and don't necessarily need input from those firms. So for the mundane line-of-business segment, companies want to try their own hand. I personally think there will still be a need for moderate sized Systems Houses that can deliver bespoke solutions weaving together state of the art software and hardware. In terms of jobs, I think they will be dispersed and not hoarded by the big tech firms going forward. All of this is just an opinion.

👤 college_physics
Just check stock market history (eg Nasdaq) [0] (select the entire length). Even though tech experienced a long exponential market value rise after the dot com crash (2000) in the last few years (2019+) there was a super-exponential event (bubble) of even faster rise.

This was even reinforced in the pandemic. Instead of worrying about all the fragilities exposed in society, the streched supply chains etc, this dramatic event was even turned into a tech positive (remote working etc). The tech sector was the only official speculative game in town (unofficially we also had crypto bubble) and management could get away with everything.

What happened since is not so much a recession but the invasion of Ukraine and the further disruption of global trade, inflation, simmering geopolitical tensions, acceptance of climate risk etc. Basically the virtual reality of tech got discounted in markets and people focus now on formerly unfashionable bricks and mortars.

So nothing personal or technically relevant, just stock prices, executive remuneration and incentives.

[0] https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/comp?mod=market-...


👤 bottlepalm
Because they all need an excuse to get rid of the bottom 10% every once in awhile. It’s not so obvious that’s the reason when they do it all at once. They all have more than enough cash on hand to keep people on through any downturn.

Don’t blame them. If it were my company I’d do the same thing.

In reality they could cut a lot more and be fine. Elon/Twitter is the extreme example.


👤 o0-0o
Big tech is more focused on becoming software and automating everything than people. As people become numbers and targets and nothing more than dumb robots with opinions, they become more replaceable. Big tech leading the charge for woke mob diversity. Start your own company, run it, eat big tech.

👤 mlhpdx
First, “companies” don’t decide to layoff staff - people do (for now). So think about the people involved if you’re legitimately interested in how/why it happens.

Imagine for a moment you are the CEO and someone who may ultimately decide your pay or tenure asks “The future looks uncertain, what do you think?”. You’re very likely to think “I have no idea. I’ll ask the folks working for me.” and you do. You may get a mix of answers, a minority will be thoughtful but the majority will reflect the natural human tendency for self preservation, thinking along the lines of “Since the question was asked, it means I need to confirm the unstated assumption”, and be the one safe thing to say “We should cut spending”.

It’s just people being people.


👤 Apreche
Because the capitalist system we have built demands constant growth. Even a very stable solidly profitable business is no good. A time comes when revenues go down and/or costs go up, that inhibits growth. The companies are so big they could weather the storm. Even if they kept all the employees and increased compensation, they would still be profitable.

But if they did that, they wouldn't be growing. The stock price would go down. The investors and executives would lose a lot of their own net worth. The executives don't have some magical button they can press to magically increase revenues instantly. Most non-labor costs also can't be cut. They don't have much control over the prices of the material goods and resources the company needs to operate. The only easy and instant action they can take is to lay people off. To simply stop spending money on work that isn't generating immediate revenues.

And what do you know, GOOG is up 4% today as of the time of this posting.


👤 berkle4455
Because they're big and 10,000 is a very small (~5%) percentage of their staff, and is entirely routine and normal housekeeping. Investors want to hear "layoffs" hit the newsprint.

👤 epicureanideal
Are the workers here on temporary worker visas like H1B the first to go? Or are companies taking extra steps to retain them and layoff people without immigration challenges?

👤 acdha
Beyond looking good to Wall Street, I’ve been wondering how much the boosts in compensation/ benefits and all of the reflexive “back to the office!” pushes factor into this. It would not be out of character for senior executives to be thinking of their workers as too demanding or even disobedient and the economic slowdown is a great excuse to send a message to everyone reminding them who’s in charge.

👤 anthlax
Where the hell are all these “bloat jobs”? Perhaps I’m too optimistic about other people, but I couldn’t name a single person that wasn’t pulling their weight. Perhaps people that were operating more slowly than others, but no one who was outright costing more than they provided.

At Google, for reference


👤 phendrenad2
They overhired. I've heard on the grapevine that FAANG companies were lowering their standards to keep up with the high pace of hiring demanded by the higher-ups. It seems like they were all stuck in an arms race and now they're all overcorrecting.

👤 vb-8448
Does someone know a site where I can see the total number of employers of all major tech companies in time? I'm curious to see the difference between today and pre-covid, and also look for a correlation between headcount and market capitalization.

👤 M2Ys4U
They're doing it because everyone else is. It is, to a large extent, fashion. It's layoff season.

👤 Dave3of5
Because they can.

The signal is out that growth is slowing so they chop people. The culture in the Western world especially in USA is that "layoffs" are necessary. USA is one of the only countries in the world with "At Will" employment. In most other countries these level of layoffs would sink a company easily.

USA is a rather ruthless work environment where workers rights are basically non existent.


👤 bmitc
This is all really pathetic because these companies are laying off, likely thousands of, H-1B workers who will have a tough time finding work willing to sponsor in the 60 day deadline. Likely many will be forced to return to their home country.

Trump's policies during COVID had the same effect, and many foreign workers returned to their home country either by choice or because of visa bans.

All of this seems overly shortsighted for the U.S. to throw away top foreign talent.


👤 vezzoni
finalcial markets now target efficiency rather than growth.

👤 zzzeek
simple, ChatGPT will write all the code now

👤 throwayyy479087
That some orgs overhired is not in question. What is _insane_ to me is that everyone being let go seems to be an engineer, while the DEI teams remain untouched. That section of the office sure seems to have a lot of free time, between shaming the rest of the company.

Shows the power hierarchy I suppose. Wild world.