Background: I work as a senior PM in a big tech company. The pay, without being out of line with the market, is more than I ever thought I'd make. I owned my house outright at age 40, I go out to eat whenever I feel like it, I get to travel a few times a year. I'm pretty happy about my life day to day.
But then I still think of my job as challenging and sometimes stressful. I look at some of my lower level engineering peers that are "stuck" in their careers (5+ years at the same level, no management responsibility), and honestly I feel like they have a pretty blissful life. Maybe I'm idealizing, but I feel like they can just think about how to build something, get it built, and move to the next thing. Not have to deal with recruitment, management, strategy, etc. Show up and fix the bugs.
I used to be a SWE and have kept my skills current, so I'm considering a move back and down from senior strategy and product work back to engineering IC work. This would likely cut my pay in half, so I'd have to do away with some luxuries, but I feel I could manage it financially.
Yet I also have a strong instinct against doing this, because it feels like self sabotage according to the standard definitions of a career. I worry about having regrets and endangering my family's financial safety.
Any folks who've gone through this and want to share their advice?
With this framing, it can turn your life into a disaster.
Up to that point, I was nodding to every sentence you wrote. But not to this, no. When I demoted myself in my time, which ended very well, I had a different framing (or, a different gut feeling). My instinct was that I'm selling my well-being for much much too low a price and that, this time, there is a greener pasture.
I was noticing the money flow and how I was enabling a business owner, a very concrete physical person, to profit immensely. You can call it envy, I'd say I've learned that I can enter and leave any business transaction as I please.
The career path is just smoke and mirrors.
The ownership shenanigans is just smoke and mirrors. It doesn't matter that the ownership is split into million shares, because in the end of the chain the wealth (from many companies) does converge to an individual. Look through these schemes. As a thought experiment, think about that individual on a hard day, imagine how you've just made "him" 2 million with your sacrifice and you will get 20 grand bonus.
I'm not saying to go to the streets and loot the businesses, I'm saying you need to see your transaction and your options clearly, without distractions. Talk to your family in this framing as well.
Further, as you get older, becoming an IC has ageism risks, and returning to age appropriate leadership roles maybe hard with the “drop” on your resume.
I’ve been to a colleague’s ‘demotion party’ from team lead to IC in another office - they had no regrets.
Be prepared for employers to be nervous about employing you - some will be worried about you being too big a flight risk because you might still have an open door to senior PM roles. So plan to manage that fear on their side.
If you are not happy then I think it is worth moving "down". Worrying about financial safety is important but what about your mental health?
My vote is to seriously consider the move and try to figure out a way to make it work moving "down".
I could have continued working at 100%... but what for? I realized I don't need status symbols like expensive clothes or a sports car with vanity plates, and my kids will get their smartphones second-hand, just as I do. We're now living in the countryside with decently sized garden and some animals around the house.
I've escaped the treadmill and it was the best decision of my life.
My advice: don’t do it. Look around while you have a job, but stay fully committed to your duties at work (stealing from your employers is still stealing and is wrong).
If you need to, take some vto to clear your mind and relax.
I was on parental leave when interviewing, and of course me becoming a dad made me pick this one over the other ones where I'd prolly have stressed a lot, worked extra for bonuses that don't exist where I ended up, etc.
I don't regret it, except when it's time to negociate a raise and I think about the amount I could be earning. Doesn't last long, I can still switch later if I really need the money, I'm still receiving very positive mails from those I declined, they're actively looking for new hires even recently.
Just be advised that a software engineer's job isn't stress free either. Big projects can wreck you both mentally and physically. In some ways, being a PM is a lot easier.
Before you do anything, talk to these engineers at length and in depth to confirm whether your assumptions are true. They might not "just think about how to build something, get it built, and move to the next thing".
When I applied for an internal transfer from a senior non-technical role where I was unhappy to a less-senior technical role I had some prior experience with, I talked to members of the team I'd be joining to get a better idea of how they felt on the team and not just the work they had to do. The team I was on was broadly unhappy, which was driving my desire to move, and I wanted to join a team that had at least some camaraderie in the face of the work they had to do.
It would've been easy to assume that was the case, and talking to the team members confirmed it. It also gave me insight into the kinds of gaps and problems they did have that prevented them from doing the kind work I wanted to do with them, and where I could fit in to help solve those problems. It helped justify the move for myself, for the company, and for both the team I was joining and the team I was leaving.
Here's my Yes, And...
> ...a move back and down from senior strategy and product work back to engineering IC work
The single best political advice I've ever gotten:
"Make them ask you three times."
(aka Play hard to get, Make them think it's their idea.)
Assuming you intend to stay with the same employer...
If there's an IC role that you desire, do all the things to reposition yourself for that role. So that it's obvious to everyone you're the best person.
When your Boss (or higher) says, "Hey @throw_booored, what do you think of this exciting opportunity building the next generation Acme Wonder Widget?"
"Hmmm, gee Boss, that sure does look cool. I'd love to work on that! Alas, I really love my job. I'm doing important work, with great people, having an impact. And we're so busy hitting some important deadlines. I couldn't possibly abandon them at a time like this. I'm sure you'll find someone..."
Back and forth. Never dismiss the offer. Just demure. Always sound enthusiastic about the idea, grateful for the consideration, and oh so regretful you couldn't possibly take that role at this time.
Around the third time, you say something like "Wow. You've really planted a seed. I can't stop thinking about this. I'd like to say yes. What would a transition look like? Compensation? Responsibilities?" Etc, etc.
1. I think the biggest challenge in making these decisions is the fear of making the "wrong" move and the fear of "regret". The reality is that there is no one right answer - regardless of what path you take, regret is baked in and guaranteed. The alternate path/s and its possibilities will always go unexplored/unknown. The question is which one are you ok with the consequences, both upside and downside. Which one are you going to regret more in terms of not taking action?
2. You are onto something in terms of money. We forget but it's only one form of exchange albeit one that we easily understand and that's why it dominates our thinking. But there are others not so obvious ones like time, energy, and identity which are of a higher order but don't get as much airtime. Obviously, you can't make decisions in a vacuum given others are dependent on you.
I've written about my experience that might help.
A collection of frameworks to think it through: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/essential-career-change-frame...
Some questions and the framework around money: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/questions-midlife-career-chan...
More questions around mid career dynamics: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/mid-career-mistakes/
My advice would be to think of the reasons why you wanted to move up from SWE into various roles leading to the Senior PM role you have now. Were you interested in those roles to be someone in the room making decisions, thinking you would do a better job than others? Maybe you were attracted to the strategy aspects? Maybe it was coaching people and see them grow? Maybe it was 100% pure cash grab?
Blissfully building something and moving to the next thing is idealizing a software engineer's day to day. There is tech debt and the struggle of trying to convince people in your current role the importance, legacy code, legacy frameworks/methodologies, constantly having to learn the new shiny thing to stay relevant, dealing with many different engineer personalities, constantly being asked to deliver stuff in what is perceived as limited timeline, etc.
Doesn’t pay enough to retire though. Can’t even afford the dentist on that income
If I were to return to the work force, I would prioritize enjoying the job: friendly teammates, no/short commute, interesting problems to solve, no ethical dilemmas about how my work would be used.
Life is short and I doubt in my deathbed I will be thinking about all the money I didn't make.
At my previous mega company, it was pretty common for people to move up and down the corporate ladder. My company encouraged it and it never affected anyone negatively.
I personally went to from team lead to senior dev role. Team lead is also considered IC/manager-in-training role. I was getting overwhelmed with meetings and losing my programming skills. So far I am really enjoying the new "lower" role, and plan on staying at this level for foreseeable future.
good stress / good for you ('having' to make decisions, being responsible for things, etc.) vs. bad stress / bad for you (getting told what to do, etc.).
getting back to being a manager-type again was a thing - i guess it added a small hurdle - but was not a big deal on the whole.
one data point.
Best work experience of my life and I don’t care that it wasn’t the next rung on my corporate ladder.
Not having my own family allowed me to make that decision though.
This is all objectively easier and less skillful than your co-workers work. For example, if you recruit wrong.. the company will just fire all those people (as demonstrated by X number of companies in recent months). There will likely be no short term or long term repercussion for you unless you're one of the people fired.
For strategy, if you strategize wrong it is probably contained within a product or section of the company. I doubt you could tank the whole big tech company you work for. You'll just move on to a different project.
Sounds like you're making big money to show up to meetings.
One piece of advice I can give is to make a list of concrete things that are making you think about becoming an IC. And by concrete I don't mean just a word like "Stress." List out the things that are causing that (e.g. Unpredictable rushed deadlines). If it's useful, create a mental Venn diagram of what overlaps and pull out some larger themes. From the list, pick the top 2 - 3 and ask yourself if you are really going to get that as an IC.
Example: For me, one thing that was causing me an immense amount of stress was a highly unpredictable schedule - last minute meetings, fires, people with no ability to prioritize, etc. At the top of my list was being able control my schedule to a reasonable degree. IME that's really hard to do as a Manager or even a Lead/Principal, so it made sense to me to move down to Senior and find a job that allowed for that.
That being said, there are plenty of IC jobs where you sit in pointless meetings all day and get called into meetings at the last minute. It's not like moving down is a guarantee of anything, so it's important to really identify if moving down is going to get you what want. HN has plenty of anecdotes of crappy IC jobs.
As far as pay, I took a small haircut from Manager -> Principal and then a slightly bigger haircut from Principal -> Senior. My spouse works so we still have more than enough to pay bills, meet retirement goals, and have something left over for other stuff. I'm not paid even close to what FAANG people are making, but I suspect lots of people I work with on the business side of things would love to be in my salary band.
Financially it was okay (still painful; 20% cut + move to vhcol area), but I underestimated how much it would grate to _not matter_. I had grown accustomed to a certain level of deference and respect that was not available in the new role, and in fact my willingness to move "down" was viewed with some suspicion.
People will (almost) always assume you "couldn't cut it" in the old role (or had a mental health crisis or something), and higher-ranked people in the new job will rightly look at you as a potential threat from below.
Good luck. Moving back to IC can be good for some people, but I agree with the other poster that "self sabotage" is a phrase that suggests this may not be right for you.
But the company is also a big factor. Previous job was a rotating door. New job has a solid culture.
It might be better to spend some free time cultivating a side project or two where you can exercise your dev skills without endangering your income. Who knows, it might take off and turn into your own company down the road.
Once you give up salary and seniority, though, those are gone with the odds stacked against getting them back.
And there is the cynical (but non-zero) chance that many people will assume you were demoted for poor performance / behavioral issues / insert your own negative perception, instead of a voluntary move.
Tread cautiously, I'd say, don't do aything to endanger your current position and income.
It's difficult to make as much money in other tracks, so you need to decide what your risk tolerance is.
But keep in mind that you're looking the grass on the other side and thinking it's greener. People in the technical track have the frustration of having many technical decisions made for them by the "idiots" in the management track.
Pick your poison.
They almost immediately got acquired and it turned into the same old big company bureaucracy over again. My tradeoff was in vain.
If I had to do it again, I still don't know if I'd do it differently though. You really never know how things are going to turn out. Every choice is a risk either way.
I moved from Engineering Manager "down" to Senior Engineer 15 months ago. I had pretty much the same perception as this.
I still do. My life is blissful now. Go for it!
The tipping point— when you no longer worry about things like finances, career track, opinions of others.
Either because you resolved those issues in your mind, or uncontrollable events have made your corporate position redundant.
Always a smart play to have a solid “Plan B” at the ready.