Would a tech recession vindicate calls for tech unionization?
For years, the idea of unionizing software engineers and other tech workers has been mostly a fringe idea. While there have been some high-profile examples such as the Kickstarter union and organizing in the notoriously cutthroat video games industry, the idea has been largely scoffed at. The idea is that because SWEs are in such hot demand, it is one of the very few examples where employment relations benefit workers greatly.
Now with large scale layoffs already and who knows what else on the horizon, it seems like that leverage, once present during the low interest rates environment of the pandemic bubble, is fast disappearing. So does that vindicate the idea that tech workers should have codified the benefits they enjoyed during the good times, through unionizing?
Maybe the reverse. You're assuming that a tech union would prevent people from being laid off and maybe it would to some degree. But more likely there would be rules on how you have to treat workers. And they would necessarily be rigid. For instance, layoffs would likely happen by some rule that favors how long you've been at the firm or some meaningless objective measure. That obviously doesn't make sense because layoffs are an opportunity to cut weaker performers or entire teams that don't really do anything. It would also hurt hiring and make employers more risk averse if they know they cannot get rid of poor performers easily. This impacts young inexperienced workers especially and is part of the reason places like France have youth unemployment is around 20% while US youth unemployment is around 8%
https://www.statista.com/statistics/460548/youth-unemploymen...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/217448/seasonally-adjust...
(American biased) I think too many in these conversations fail to show good unions (sports and entertainment) and harp on the bloated ones (teachers UAW). Ideally the union should just be a floor, what protections we’re provided, benefits for when corporate feels trimming happy to soften these blows, and to reduce inherent biases within the industry. While I’d love for one to develop in this time, it’s still too many thinking they’ll be the successor versus the next to be expendable.
> does that vindicate the idea that tech workers should have codified the benefits they enjoyed during the good times, through unionizing?
It seems like one is unrelated to the other. The goal is good — to get back to the good times. But the path from here to there seems unlikely to pass through a union, at least for most tech workers.
It would help to list some of the perceived benefits of unionizing. Then we’d be able to quantify an answer. Without a specific target, it’s hard to say whether a certain proposal might get there.
Later: The recent layoffs are a good example of one of the benefits of unionizing. Theoretically, companies would have a tough time reducing head count if we were organized. But that raises the question of whether 14 weeks of severance is sufficient. For me it would’ve been, but there are a great many who wouldn’t have.
Are there other benefits besides layoff protection? Discussions like these often focus on the downsides of unionization. It’s hard to recall one extolling the virtues.
Any organization including a union eventually gets captured by corruption.
See teachers unions that don't let bad teachers get fired even after abusing students.
The iron law of bureaucracy dampens my desire to have the feeling of safety that may come from being in a union.
As someone that used to work blue collar jobs, I would never join a tech union.
Skeptical POV: tech management culture is so consistently awful I hardly want to add another management party to the mix.
Hardly. Seeing how the nyt union organizes against employees, I’d fight any unionization effort at my work strongly because I’d be worried the union would go after me if it could
I'm not certain that I want something as simple as a union that just works to make sure I'm not fired.
What I'd love to see is a collective of employees that owns a significant portion of the company- the group, not just the individuals within it. It doesn't need to be the majority ownership, but enough that this group is a major player. They get consulted, and their support matters.
As owners, this group would be incentivized to help maximize profits. But those profits would then go to the employees. The leadership would be elected, and be tasked with trying to divvy up those profits among employees in whatever way seems fair.
There's a lot of flaws in this idea. It's initial. But I would love to see something tried where employee power doesn't just come from the threat of holding out labor, but from actual ownership.
What will unionization do for recession? Will they create jobs ? Or will they force employers to keep people on their payroll, who will not be doing anything productive?
Recessions happen for a reason, which is the economy tanking in general. An in a long roundabout of thing, most of the time an overzealous union or two can be found close to the heart (root cause if you will) of the recession.
Unionizing even more, will not help the situation of workers but will fatten the union organizers. IT industry is not a good place for unions as far as the tech workers are concerned. If you are good at what you do, your unemployment period is negligibly small. Call it an unpaid vacation. If you are one of those crash course graduates who call themselves IT experts, then all bets are off.
This IT unionizing thing getting pushed more and more by the inept people in IT as well as the few clever guys who are looking into living the life of dolce-vita off of the backs of unionized workers. Screw all of them.
I feel like a union would do really well in situations like the layoffs at twitter.
People who architect systems know that there can be value from a management layer, especially where scalability is a concern.
People who look at history often see unions becoming a solution in search of a problem.
It depends on the shape of the recession. Collective bargaining is a way for workers to demand some of the surplus that's otherwise flowing to owners. If the tech labor market crashes by itself, such that tech firms are able to increase their revenue per employee, then a union could claw some of that back. But if layoffs are coming from companies with thin or negative margins, then to the extent that employees can secure higher wages or make themselves harder to fire, those companies will only go bankrupt faster.
i'm trying to skip the corporate union layer and just start a co-op with my other talented friends
The market in tech still seems pretty hot to me. All my news is "layoffs" but all my unsolicited emails are invitations to interview...
Also, it's not clear to me how a union would assist. If your startup is shutting down because it cannot get funded because interest rate rises mean there is no more cheap cash, what will a Union do? Convince the FED to slash interest rates to save your company?
An issue with unions is they can only really form at times where workers have leverage and wouldn't benefit much from the union. Once the labor market is tight, unions don't really have the leverage to negotiate unless they fully monopolize labor.
Given tech working conditions are pretty nice, tech unions would likely quickly devolve into some DEI and politics catchall worse than current HR stuff, and I can't imagine many of us would want to work in union shops.
Only if these so called "tech worker unions" start acting like they have an "R" in their names. Not a peep from the lot about recent layoffs or abuses going on at Twitter. All they seem to care about is everyone being called by their preferred gender pronouns. They act pretty much like management plants to prevent formation of real worker-centered unions. After all, it costs much less to replace gender pronouns on various corporate websites than to give a raise.
Also, no political donations from member dues please? I can already donate to whomever I want and might be amenable to follow union guidance if I see how that will make my life better. But for example, I am fine with Biden, however I am not sure if I want to support Harris reelection campaign in 2024 (let's be real about the inevitable). Have to at least see who the other candidate is, maybe DeSantis is lesser of two evils? In any case, there is no way I am paying thousands of dollars in dues every year to support candidates and causes I might oppose. For better wages / benefits / job security, maybe.
All these geniuses on HN and none of them starts a company founded from Day 1 on worker-coop model. You can start a consultancy or some low-risk business on such a model. So many people here had solid exits and have $XX millions - why not prove out some worker socialism without coercing everyone else to do it? Do it voluntarily.