HACKER Q&A
📣 corsac

How do you fight unjust bans from online platforms?


Many people have become reliant on platforms like AirBnB, Paypal, and Facebook to the extent that losing access would have a significant adverse impact on their lives or livelihoods. At the same time, many of these platforms are well known for suspending or banning unsuspecting users without providing information about their reasons for doing so, and without providing any clear path to appeal or escalate.

Faced with such a suspension or ban, what approaches are most likely to be effective in getting it reversed? Are there actions one can take that most users might be unaware of?


  👤 vasco Accepted Answer ✓
I've been banned from adsense recently, affecting 4 websites that have been live for ~10 years because presumably someone incorrectly thinks I'm incentivising hacking when none of the websites are even tangentially related to this.

Appeal denied within 2 weeks, most likely automated, no ability to recourse anywhere. And with the near monopoly on ads google has, I'm either out of pocket on server costs from now on, or have to go to a lower quality network that may distribute malware and get further impacted by Google SEO. My answer so far has been to try to not think about it, because there's no recourse unless you have friends at Google, which I don't.


👤 anonym29
The tricks are mostly proactive / strategic rather than reactive.

• Don't rely on platforms you have no control over in the first place. PayPal can close your PayPal account, but nobody can close your self-custody Bitcoin wallet. Self-ownership comes with some risks, but it negates some others. The solution is to use both (and others), which brings us to our next point -

• If you must use some platforms you have no control over, have functionality redundancies in place with other providers, to eliminate single points of failure. You can encourage customers to use alternative payment mechanisms by offering price incentives to lesser utilized mechanisms. Obviously you don't want to lose too much money, but there is a case to be made that getting 100% of your potential profit, but getting it from one payment provider is riskier than getting 90% of your potential profit, split across two payment providers. This works for ad buys too, rather than just receiving revenue.

As far as reactive techniques go, getting in contact with customer service and saying your account was hijacked because your computer got hacked and you had your password saved can be effective if there was a specific behavior/condition you are confident that caused the ban, which you are also confident you can avoid in the future. This excuse is particularly good because it offers an explanation not only for the behavior, but also for almost all of the metrics/identifiers that would be used to validate it was you - IP address, useragent, etc.


👤 bombcar
If you are aboveboard you need to diversify, because you WILL eventually eat a ban.

If you are not aboveboard, then just keep climbing back on using various tricks, as you won't really care.


👤 johncoltrane
Take a moment to appreciate how bad the idea of relying so much on those platforms was in the first place and think about less postmodern ways to earn a living.

👤 lovvtide
You make the data layer deeper than the platform.

Platforms should be clients, not silos. Effective moderation is super necessary. And building a community is really hard. You need a level playing field for platforms to actually figure out and compete on the basis of how well they can solve these problems instead of figuring out how to maintain their status as gatekeepers. The fediverse is a step in this direction but (currently) it's still too siloed and fragile, since server admins can delete all your data on a whim, effectively resetting whatever equity you have built around your social profile.

You should check out a blogging platform called Satellite. The goal is to start building a universal, interoperable data layer that other apps can fork or built on top of by signing all the data and publicly releasing an archive/snapshot of the total network state every 28 days.

Satellite -> https://satellite.earth

Discloser: I'm the developer


👤 cyberphobe
You can't. They have no financial reason to give a shit about you. If screwing you over is more profitable than not, or looks like it probably will be, they will screw you over.

👤 tempestn
Keep trying to find a real thinking person to talk to. Eventually you may get someone who will actually look into the issue. It often takes multiple attempts, and usually you'll have to dig for that contact info. For example I once lost access to a company facebook page. There was no official way to recover it or contact a human, but I created a Facebook ads account, and was able to get support there to look into it and get the page recovered.

👤 jrockway
I think you just get a new unique identifier and start over, right? None of these sites know who "you" are, they only have information about certain identifiers that you are in control of. First they ban your email, and you can create an infinite number of those for free. Then they ban your IP address, and you unplug your cable modem and plug it back in, and that problem is solved. Then they ban your phone number, but you can have a brand new one in minutes. Then they ban "you" based on your driver's license, but you just move to a new state and change your name, and get a brand new one that's not in their system. Facebook doesn't have a team of private detectives surveilling you 24 hours a day.

Realistically, I feel like the Tech Companies are losing against their more traditional peers, except maybe Amazon. Maybe social media is a big part of your life and you got banned, but I think it's pretty much on the way out. Nobody can make money with social media, it seems. AirBnB seems to have whipped traditional hotel companies into shape; better rates and less nickeling and diming. Now it's AirBnB that surprises you with a $200 "cleaning fee" because you didn't wash the coffee pot with soap and water. Paypal? Just make your customers pay you with Zelle. The incumbents caught up to the tech disruptors, and the incumbents are actually regulated.


👤 neilv
All the examples are US companies. One way to look at the problem is US companies disregarding principles of US government/society: due process, transparency, accountability.

👤 kkfx
Due to the fact I have VERY LITTLE practicals ways to protect myself I do my best to avoid and suggest anybody to avoid depending on such platforms. When I can't and something happen I go straight with a formal complaint to the local legal dep address electing domicile for the reply to my local lawyer coupled with a ferocious but formally never insulting nor illegal campaign to publicize what happen on all media I can access.

Those who live like mobsters against others like them fear those who know how to use the society against them, not easy nor cheap in all cases, but mostly works well.

Essentially I treat them for what they are, in a calm and merciless manner. Beside that your personal option is ZERO. At a social level the option is MANDATE BY LAWs certain practices to sanctions mobsters and bully enough they decide change their attitude. Actually however most people do the very opposite, acting a soldiers fighting for their enemy demanding even more platformisation and corporatocracy... Witch means avoid the need to fight as much as possible is the sole protection for now.


👤 edent
Private businesses are under no obligation to do business with you. We live in a capitalist society where you are free to choose one of their many competitors.

If, however, you find yourself excluded from a monopoly provider, there are a few strategies you can use.

Argue with them. You might get lucky and find a customer support agent who is sympathetic (or apathetic).

GDPR them. Send a Subject Access Request and ask for information they hold about you. They should also give you the opportunity to appeal against any automated decisions.

Go to their regulator. Most companies are regulated by another institution.

Sue them. If you think your exclusion is illegal (if they've banned you for being disabled, for example) then you may be able to to take them to court.

Speak to your local democratic representative. Explain to them what problems this ban is causing. A letter from an MP usually receives a bit more attention than an email from a suspended customer.

Finally, go to their competitor. If they have no competitor, speak to whoever regulates monopolies in your area.


👤 LinuxBender
Faced with such a suspension or ban, what approaches are most likely to be effective in getting it reversed? Are there actions one can take that most users might be unaware of?

I do not believe there is a great or universal answer for this. In my utopian vision, people would just leave platforms that have been tainted in this manor and let their wallets to the voting. Some have started to leave PayPal after their recent malfeasant behavior.

Short of that, one would need to:

- have friends working at that platform that could effect change

- convince a wealthy person or company to acquire the company or make a new platform that is so enticing that people leave the old one, accepting it will also become tainted with time and still will not please everyone.

- be an influencer with a significant number of followers or have an influencer friend that will speak out on your behalf.

Many people have become reliant on platforms

Perhaps this is the root of the problem that really needs to be addressed and I do not have a good answer that could apply to the masses. I believe each person would have to reflect on the reasons why these platforms have become critical path for them individually and find alternate paths even if they are less optimal. These platforms are not going to change. For good or bad we have all just witness what was required to make changes at Twitter and even then, the outcome will not make everyone happy.


👤 seydor
Demand regulation. It is astounding that e.g. paypal is not subject to the requirements that banks have

👤 acqbu
You simply don't. As many have already said, there's little chance of success and it's largely a waste of time.

A better question would be how to reduce your risk of getting there in the first place? Some examples below.

1) The best thing to do is to avoid such platforms altogether. I know it sounds difficult, but think of it:

* post on your own blog, rather than twitter, dev.to, hashnode etc

* own a domain name - if your provider bans you, you can find another one; if gmail bans you, good luck appealing that

* back up your data regularly and store it on external device

2) Don't put all your eggs in the same basket:

* list your property on airbnb, booking etc

* use multiple cloud storage providers to store copies of the same (ideally encrypted) data * use a variety of ad networks combined with affiliate marketing and directly sponsored ads

* use multiple email addresses for various things (trivial stuff, personal, programming, business, freelance etc)

3) Think risk management and always seek to understand the implications of getting banned on a particular platform as well as the steps you can take to avoid that and, if it does happen, to mitigate the impact.


👤 POPOSYS
Do we have an open, decentralized platform that collects and publishes cases of bans?

Of course, every user will cry "unjust ban" while still advertising casino coins or spreading lies. So there are some questions about how such openly documented cases should be reported and how readers can get a full picture, but to me it still seems useful.


👤 konsolebox
Get a purely decentralized platform at the expense of zero moderation.

👤 actually_a_dog
I wish I knew. For some reason, I'm only allowed to post 5 comments per account per $RELATIVELY_LONG_PERIOD_OF_TIME on this very website. I also, for some reason, end up with a lot of downvotes on what look to me like reasonable comments that actually attract a good amount of upvotes initially.

Love me, hate me, or anything in between, but I don't think I violate the guidelines any more than those people who are still in the site's good graces. Since I have no idea exactly _why_ I'm so severely rate limited here, I have no idea how to get out of the dog house, either. Emails have gone unanswered, so I can only assume nobody really cares about my problem.



👤 john_the_writer
Buy the platform?

👤 POPOSYS
And while we are at it - how do we fight unjust NOT-bans, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33727981 ?

👤 postultimate
If the company bans you, they are publicly claiming you have performed a disreputable action of some kind. If you have not, why not sue them for defamation ?

👤 Lapsa
ditch them. why do you want to be on an unjust online platform?

👤 theCrowing
You take them to arbitration.

👤 AIboxed
I'm really interested in how one can do this

👤 POPOSYS
You know you are asking on a platform that is censoring and banning comments / users?

👤 Am4TIfIsER0ppos
Buy them for 44B

👤 ShamelessC
Move on.

👤 Konohamaru
You can't fight City Hall.

👤 mgarfias
Give up.