HACKER Q&A
📣 fakecontractor

Corp gives “contractor” benefits, want “employee” obligations, what now?


I am a remote worker in a country that is not the same one as any of the company offices (they have multiple offices in multiple countries).

They hired me as "contractor", but promised I would be treated as employee, to facilitate things legally.

Things went good at first, but now they been treating me as contractor regarding rights, but employee regarding what they want from me.

    - I have no vacation, no paid sick days, no leave, no benefits.
    - One of the owners (he has a huge amount of shares) explicitly told me I will never get a raise, because contractors don't get raises.
At same time:

    - I have to work in specific work hours
    - I have a manager that even micromanages my work and keep pestering me whenever I don't reply promptly, can't even go to the bathroom without my phone without this guy noticing.
    - I got a semi-leadership position, I don't have any employees under me but there is a project in the company that I own completely and make all decisions, and whenever someone else screws up on that project I am responsible (even if they don't report to me directly).
    - Whenever a project is late, I have to help and work unpaid overtime (in fact I worked the past months 12+ hour per day including weekends, also having zoom calls with clients 4:00 in the morning is a thing that happened).
Also despite my speed being faster and faster, with more and more Jira tickets completed, enormous amount of Git commits, and clients being happy with my work, my manager keeps saying I am underperformer.

To be honest I wanted to quit, but I am living paycheck to paycheck with zero savings after I had to expend them because of a family member car accident. Other employees been quitting for a while now, company has very high turnover, including losing lead engineers that didn't document their work so many new employees have no idea how the company tech actually works.

Also the jurisdiction of my contract is UK, but I don't live in UK, and I am not UK citizen, I am not sure if I even can sue them, or if I was going to sue them, what kind of lawyer I would have to look for.

Contract is full of sketchy stuff, like they owning even my personal diary if I wrote in it during my contract, or owning my private correspondence.


  👤 flint Accepted Answer ✓
Contractor math.

There are 52 weeks in 1 year. Give yourself 2 weeks vacation that leaves 50 weeks. At 40 hours per week that is 2000 hours as a full time equivalent (a salaried position). If you bill at 100/hour that is 200k/year.

If you want/need 4 weeks off, assume 1920 hours per year and adjust your hourly rate, call it ~105/hour

If your medical insurance costs 6k per year, adjust your hourly rate, call it ~107.3/hour

If you want disability/life insurance and the cost to you is 15k per year, adjust your hourly rate, call it now ~115/hour.

Giving up 50k in stock options, well that's a one time thing. Also if a relocation is required and your partner looses their positon better factor that into your decision - up front.

This all gets negotiated up front - not 4 months in.

Good luck on your next negotiation.


👤 davzie
I've contracted for 10+ years and this is not a healthy place for you to be working. Find yourself something else if you can as soon as possible for your own health.

I got some professional contracts drafted up that favour software engineers specifically for the UK market. Feel free to contact me through the website and I'll send you them for free. Hopefully they will help you solidify more healthy contracts in the future: https://davidthorpe.dev/resources/contracts.html


👤 sometimeshuman
Just to address one of your many points: "contractors don't get raises"

I heard similar at my company. But every year I write a letter requesting a raise and send it to at least two people in the company. "One of the owners..." then send the letter to more than one owner or an owner and your direct manager. That owner probably wouldn't re-iterate how cheap they are if a direct-hire is cc'ed.

In the letter, I politely explain my recent contributions, the fact I have competing interests and other opportunities but would like to keep working there. I don't make it sound like I have one foot out the door but it's implied I am standing near the door and it's up to them to keep me.

I have never failed to get a raise in over 10 years. When I shared this with a co-worker (contractor), I learned she hasn't received a raise in 4 years. Same goes for the other contractors (5+ years?). The money is there, so just ask for it. If they don't have the money for a modest raise then it's sinking ship.


👤 brezelgoring
Contracts with draconian terms such as those, are usually hard to enforce, and end up being just a way to scare you into compliance.

Try and look for an exit as soon as possible, don't look for ideal new jobs, just something that lets you live in as cost-saving a way as you can, to buy time to find an actual job and recuperate. Think: low-responsibility, low-pay, low-compromise.

Most of the advice you'll get here is to leave because that's about all you can do. Don't fight it, just try and do it ASAP.


👤 onion2k
I am not sure if I even can sue them

Considering you did all this voluntarily I don't think there's anything you can sue your employer for. They set the terms of your employment, you agreed to them and have been carrying them out, and they pay you. As far as everyone is concerned everyone in the contract is fulfilling their end of the bargain. The only thing that's wrong is that you're not happy with what you're being asked to do and yet you're still doing it.

The short term solution here is to talk to your manager. Tell them you're unhappy and that you're not doing the job you signed up for. The longer term solution is to find a new job.

Also the jurisdiction of my contract is UK...

If there's a jurisdiction clause in the contract that you signed that states any dispute will be settled in a UK court then this is correct, but if there isn't then either party can nominate where disputes are settled (usually this happens when the contract is signed..) However if you try to sue they'll immediately terminate your contract/employment which doesn't sound like it'd put you in a good position.

Also... you're not being "treated like a contractor". If you are a contractor that doesn't mean you have to put up with this level of bullshit. No one, contractor or employee, should take crap like this in their job. Don't stand for it. Speak up.


👤 JAlexoid
You're a contractor - PERIOD.

Whenever people say "you'll be treated as an employee", that only means that you will not be excluded from team activities and decisions. That's my experience in both positions of hiring and being a contractor. It's practically to make sure that you still work as part of the team.

As for an annoying client - only than what is in your contract. If the contract says "deliver X" - then you may have to bite it. But your contract probably says "full time" or "40hrs per week"

I had a contract at a digital publisher in London, the boss was horrible... every morning I would place my phone with an 8 hour timer on my desk. I would pause it for lunch only. And once time ran out I straight up stopped working... get up and leave. Period.

If they're bad to you, then you either quit or execute only responsibilities listed in the contract.


👤 stonemetal12
"contractors don't get raises" Correct they negotiate contracts instead, when your contract is up demand an increase.

"I have to help and work unpaid overtime", incorrect you are a contractor the only thing you have to do is what is in your contract. If it doesn't specify "unpaid overtime" then clearly state that isn't in your contract so you aren't going to do it.


👤 tonnydourado
So, you've been screwed with in several levels, and I think that there's very little chance you get any payback. It happens. Put it in the lessons learned column and move on.

More precisely, move on to looking for a new job. If you have been very productive and have had lots of responsibility, that can go a long way to improve your resume. Update it, and start hunting. As someone else suggested, "Drop productivity, but no engagement", and use the extra time to job search.

One particular tip: if they put such ridiculous terms in the contract, you should probably do all job searching in your own hardware (phone, computer). Just in case.


👤 matai_kolila
> They hired me as "contractor", but promised I would be treated as employee, to facilitate things legally.

In the US this is both common and irrelevant; if you're treated like an employee you are an employee. This isn't helpful to you OP, but if you, dear reader, hear this at a future job, recognize this as problematic and (to my layperson understanding) illegal.

If there's nothing you can do to improve your work situation, or if you must continue working while you improve your work situation, it's really important for you to divest your sense of self worth from your job performance, for the sake of your own mental health.

You are not the sum of your work, these people cannot tell you how "good" you are; they've lost your trust.


👤 prepend
I did contracting (one person s corp) and this isn’t uncommon and I didn’t even avoid it as long as my rate reflected all the factors.

It sounds like you may want employee benefits and if so, get an employee job and stop contracting. If you like the company ask to apply for a permanent position. If you don’t, go elsewhere.

That being said, I liked contracting and got my own benefits, planned my own vacation, etc and factored all that into my rate. As a contractor, I only got paid for what I billed. And I didn’t get raises, but I would renegotiate my rate every year or so or just include step ups after certain time periods.

I don’t think your client’s request are unreasonable but these are all things you should negotiate before accepting the contract.

Legally, there are things that clients can’t specify with contractors. Practically, I frequently accepted specific hours and equipment to use and reflected that in my rate. The alternative is usually just quitting and finding other work. Although there are some famous cases of contractors suing and getting benefits of employees [0].

[0] https://www.computerworld.com/article/2589538/it-personnel-m...


👤 dfraser992
Why hasn't anyone mentioned IR35?????

I am in the UK - it seems the company you are working for is in violation of the IR35 regulations (but I'm not entirely sure of what nuances there are given you are in another country). i.e. you are a contractor, but are being treated as a full time employee with none of the benefits of such. e.g. they 'should' be paying the government for National Insurance etc.

I have been contracting for 10+ years so know something of IR35 but have always made sure the contracts I sign are quite clear about me not being an employee etc - no long term contracts etc. So I'm not an expert here.

If they are violating IR35, which I really think they are, then you have quite a lot of power at your disposal if you can play things right. You can either get them to start respecting you (but it doesn't sound like that is the best idea because staying is a __bad idea__) or sue them or just turn them over to HMRC.

In any case, you should talk to a solicitor - get everything you can documented and well organized, then any good employment lawyer can tell you the cost/benefits of turning them over to HMRC / the authorities. Google IR35 and employment law / solicitors ... pick one that has a well designed website. Talking to them ought to be free for the first 1/2 hour (I would think) or you should be able to send an email with a good summary of the situation w/o incurring any costs.


👤 bityard
It sounds like the first thing you need to do is to admit to yourself that you made a mistake in accepting this contract and treat it as a learning experience. This is actually good news for you because it means you now know of at least a few different ways that unscrupulous people can take advantage of you. You now have a better understanding of what to avoid and what to ask for when signing a work contract.

For what it's worth, many of us have suffered through terrible working conditions at the start of our careers, mainly because we didn't know any better. You're definitely not alone here.

The definition of an "employee" vs "contractor" varies between countries (and there are gray areas in all) but you need to know those differences before you decide to take on another contracting position. In many countries, contractors cannot be ordered by the client to work certain hours or from a certain place unless it's essential to the work being required (e.g., a security guard).

It sounds like your current contact is not salvageable and I can just about 100% guarantee that any major pushback or legal action is not going to make your client suddenly decide to treat you like an adult. Your best bet is to move on, either with full-time employment and benefits, or continue contracting/freelancing but paying extra attention to the terms of the contract this time around.

If you decide to keep contracting, remember that you are essentially in business for yourself, and that you have to juggle all of the things involved in that including setting rates that allow for the overhead of paying other professionals for business services such as tax preparation, health insurance, a lawyer for contract writing/review, etc.


👤 Blackstone4
Just get another job....poorly treated...unlikely to materially improve...

If you are a contractor, then you can decide your bill rate and hours. If you are asked to work extra say that you need to be compensated and if they have sign off for the expense. Then send a bill...part of the problem here is that you did not maintain good boundaries and asked to be respected and get paid.


👤 koala_man
HN is very US centric. Get yourself some UK advice. Here's what appears to be a free helpline for employee rights issues:

https://www.gov.uk/pay-and-work-rights


👤 Kon-Peki
Before doing what other people suggest, make sure to set up a new bank account as soon as possible (unless you've already done this). All money from this contract continues with the current bank, but everything else is in your new account. You can make periodic transfers between your old and new banks as you get the money paid to you.

If things go bad and they decide to try to pull money back (it sure sounds like something they'd try), you need to continue to be able to pay the rent and buy food. Your bank won't be on your side.


👤 beaker52
Contractors shouldn’t live paycheck to paycheck. Contractors should be earning more to cover their in-between periods. If you’re not being paid very well, it sounds like the company has got a great deal - they pay you less money and you have no job security.

I’d be keen to know what kind of company treats people like this so I can make sure I never do them a favour.


👤 cjbgkagh
Lots of people are advising you to quit and look for another job. I’m assuming if you took this one then finding another isn’t that easy for you - as you would have picked a less onerous job to begin with. I think lean into the contracting aspect, just work your stated hours, don’t do unpaid overtime. This restarts negotiations without a forced confrontation. Overcommitting is just another way to get free work, requiring them to pay for it tends to fix that. The private correspondence is very likely unenforceable so I wouldn’t even worry about that. Just don’t do personal stuff on work infrastructure.

Then if you can, raise your rates to compensate for lack of holidays and promotion - part of being a contractor is setting your own rates.

Your options really depends on how much value you add to their organization or to another prospective organization.

Even if renegotiation with your current job fails it is good practice for you.


👤 roflyear
Leave, get a job somewhere else. Seems like an awful work environment. If you stay here, you'll ruin yourself. I know.

👤 bushbaba
In the US they'd call this co-employment. You could sue and likely win.

https://www.mbopartners.com/blog/misclassification-complianc...

(I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice)


👤 smsm42
> will never get a raise, because contractors don't get raises.

Contractors get raises all the time, what kind of BS is that? Contracting rates change, prices change. The guy is just being an asshole.

Don't bother with lawyers and suing, you'll never get anything out of it. Just use your current experience to look for a better job ASAP. Once you have an offer lined up, quit. Until then, don't stress about any complaints they lay on you - if they were unhappy, they'd fire you. Instead they promoted you to have more responsibilities. That means they are happy with your work - but won't tell you that because then you'd ask for more money. So, look for better place to work.


👤 toomuchtodo
Start looking for a new gig asap.

👤 Haegin
Others have given the much better answer, which is to leave and get a better job somewhere else but I saw the company is based in the UK so I wanted to mention the UK deemed employment rules which changed last year. In short, the company may be responsible for paying tax and NI deductions, where's they likely weren't before April 2021 - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fee-payer-responsibilities-under....

👤 ngvrnd
Start looking for a new job.

👤 conductr
> I wanted to quit, but I am living paycheck to paycheck

They have you exactly where they want you. It's up to you to find an out.


👤 outside1234
Move to Washington State and then sue them as a permatemp :)

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2589538/it-personnel-m...


👤 blueyes
I suspect that many, many remote, international workers will find themselves in this situation. And many many remote-first companies will pursue these tactics. This is the downside of the coming globalization of white-collar jobs due to remote being more culturally accepted in the USA.

👤 derekbaker783
If you're in India, and you can work out of an office in Hyderabad, shoot me an email (my username at gmail) with your resume/CV, as I'll be interviewing for multiple, full-time employee roles (with an "enterprisey" non-tech company) in the very near future.

👤 Nifty3929
Sounds like it's time to look for another job. And probably tighten down your finances and build up a little bridge fund.

In the meanwhile, just continue to do your best at your current job, but don't allow it to get inside your head and stress you out. And save time for interviews :-)


👤 Tangurena2
You might be able to obtain some UK-specific advice at https://old.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/ .

👤 chrisweekly
Yikes. It's inconscionable how you're being taken advantage of. Sorry to hear it. I recommend finding a new job|contract ASAP. Good luck!

👤 atmosx
Quit. The market is damn hot, what are you still doing there? :-P

ps. As other said, first find another position _then_ quit.


👤 swader999
This seems like an "If you can't change your company, change your company" situation...

👤 endorphine
Name the place for the rest of us.

👤 commandlinefan
> They hired me as "contractor"

> and work unpaid overtime

You're a contractor. Contractors are paid hourly. If you're working extra hours, you should be getting paid for the extra hours, you just have to make sure to keep track of them.


👤 throwaway743
gtfo

👤 uri4
Are you replaceable? Do you own any significant part of code? If you are there for a long time, and company has high turn over, you may have an advantage.

There is no point to negotiate, or to sue them.

Start job seeking ASAP. Do not quit, but work less hard. Insert delays into your responses. Before you commit code, take 30 minutes to study some subject or seek job.

Drop productivity, but no engagement (that is metric that matters). Still answer client calls at 4 am, pretend you work 12 hours a day etc... They will shout at you for a while, but after couple of sprints, requirements will adjust and be less demanding.