How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

Don't overthink it. You can validate the idea using SEO tools, check if the competitors have traffic and do some detective work to see if they are viable companies.

Check the SEO space, and see how many people are running ads on the main search terms, how hard is it to rank for the the main keywords. Check if forums exists, and discount coupons for similar products in marketplaces, check for similar products on product hunt and all the other product websites like Appsumo, Capterra, etc.

Look for blogs, Youtube channels, Facebook groups, subreddits. Join the communities and post there, ask questions. Interact one on one with at least 15 or 20 people and ask them about their needs.

You can do all this in a couple of weeks in the evening, without even writing a single line of code, and validate your idea.

Regarding the legal part, unless you are directly competing with your employer, they couldn't care less.

And even then, a lot of companies are created by people that learned the industry by working for other companies.

Your boss does not care about your side project, as long as you get the job done. But for you to feel better, don't put your name on it until you have quit your job, it's the internet you can still be anonymous.

No company is going to waste their time and expensive legal resources gratuitously suing you for a side project, unless it's something blatant that directly impacts their bottom line.

I wouldn't tell your boss about your side-project either. He will likely just see it as a sign of lack of dedication, that your priorities are elsewhere, and a tell sign that you will leave soon anyway.

So if they are on the fence on keeping you, that might trigger a decision.

I've built WunderGraph (https://wundergraph.com) as a side project until it was ready for real "startup mode". I've asked my employer to give me an IP exclusion for the project in writing. Then I dedicated 1-2 hours in the morning and maybe at night as well on the weekend, depending on my energy level.

I've developed the product until it had a certain maturity. I've then onboarded two co-founders who also helped part-time. One helped with marketing, one with develoent. I've found them through YC cofounder match and the dev from GitHub OSS projects. Together, we've landed our first paying customer. With a few more leads in the pipeline, we were able to start the fundraising process.

We then slowly transitioned from side project to full time. The complete team is now full time for 2 months and we're very happy how things are going.

I can say that it was a damn struggle to get all this up and running with 2 young kids and without ruining the family. I'm thankful that my wife is very supportive. It's weird when your partner accepts that you work 3 hours per day on the weekend while the kids sleep. But there was no other way. It needed to be done. Of you really believe in what you do, it's possible, even with a family. If you have questions, please ask.

Don't tell your employer. Don't incorporate until after you've quit your job. If you want to launch before quitting your job, consider using a merchant of record (e.g. Paddle) so you don't even need to incorporate.

I'm assuming you're not competing with your employer, nor are you building your startup on your employer's time or with your employer's resources, in which case there's nothing wrong with this approach ethically.

Depends where you live. In California, there are limits to what your employer can force you to assign to them. Roughly speaking, if you do it on your own time and with your own equipment, and it doesn't relate to your employer's current/predicted business, it's yours. [1]

Whether or not you're in CA, you should consider speaking to an employment lawyer in your jurisdiction to find out the relevant details.

1: https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2011/lab/division-3/...

Many consider the only way to validate is by having someone pay money for it. Lots of people (myself included) will say they will pay for something but when the time comes to buy they don't.

The book The Mom Test also points out well that lots of people will say your idea is good even when they have no intention of buying. They don't want to be assholes so they lie to you to make you feel good.

The real question is, how often are you signing away all of your intellectual property to your employer. Honestly, I've never had that in a single contract.

> I see no consideration for those whom are employed under employement contract to assign both moral rights and intellectual property to their employer.

When I got hired the contract was apparently not up to standards (but very nice). After a few years they got some lawyers to write up a new one, and it included such a "we own everything" clause.

I refused to sign it. The boss explained the intention was only on company time or with company assets. So I got them to change it to include that wording.

I'd never sign a contract with an all-encompassing "we own everything" clause, my spare time is mine. I know it probably wouldn't have held up in court where I live, but I feel it's about respect more than anything.

A lot of times you can validate whether a market exists without writing any code. You can engage in communities that would use your potential product and see if there are problems there that exist for a decent number of people.

Once you're convinced and ready to start building I think you just have to quit like you're saying. I did exactly that about 6 months ago because I had the exact same type of contract (despite what other folks are saying, they're EXTREMELY common, pretty sure all FAANG has them).

Good luck!!

Monish Pabrai talked about this exact topic recently, see https://open.spotify.com/episode/66DUjiw7nQK6hgk91qNXz9?si=f... or https://youtu.be/gE48QKFGEhI

Monish Pabrai used to be a software engineer and launched a company while he was working. This company grew to a few million in annual revenue. He‘s also the author of two investing books and sat down for a lunch with Warren Buffet and regularly has dinner with Carlie Munger.

IANAL.

Make sure you put in a carveout for every repo you have in GitHub. It helps to have a lot of public ones, then roll in your private ones into the list. Even if you have to pivot one of your private accounts, you get legal cover for working on it. Odds are the legal team won't bother checking on the contents of every single enumerated repo, and it would be insane to not hire you when you have those repos. I recommend claiming that you might have to do some work on any of these repos because other people might ask for support for those libraries. You can also make that claim for a private repo, too.

Insist that your employer provide a work only laptop. Obviously, never put any of your private repo code on your work laptop.

IANAL

My understanding of this, even in states that aren't as protective of California, is that: 1. Companies aren't interested in your IP, unless it is very closely related to their core business 2. The burden of proof is on them 3. Courts are sympathetic with the individual over the company for this kind of thing

Because of these points, companies try to paint the picture like they own all things you do, as a deterrent, or so that you give them your ideas for free. In practice, their position is at best tenuous / hard to prove, and at worst simply invalid (e.g. in states like California).

IANAL but have a side business and other projects.

List existing side projects and hustles, in generic terms, on the paperwork when you start a new job.

Use your own time and equipment for all side projects.

Don’t be a jerk about things — keep up your obligations at your day job and work on truly unrelated things for your side hustle. Or quit.

Your job doesn’t actually want to sue you. They want to retain you as a productive employee and move on when you’ve found something new to do.

A model I've uses is one of risk. Whatever your idea is there are going to be a number of potential reasons it might not work out.

For some ideas the biggest risk is the market, does anyone want this? For others it might be the technology, is this even possible?

In a lot of cases you can do things to reduce those risks and give yourself more confidence to jump ship and go all in. That might be talking to people, it might be reading academic papers. In some cases, but honestly pretty rarely, it will be building something. Most of the time that can come later.

Not dismissing any of the great advice in here already around non-compete, company IP etc. most of this kind of work (research, conversations etc) isn't something your employer can "lock down" as concretely as an MVP. Plus if it is tangential to your current job and your idea doesn't work it, you may still end up better off from having learned something new.

That's depend on your contract, I would suggest you reading it with competent Lawyer. And then decide. If this won't violate it, then go ahead. Otherwise negotiate with employer or quit.

For example my current contract explicitly allows me to do whatever I want in free time. It ewen explicitly allows me to work on other job/contracts, unless it is made from corporate equipment, in this case work is considered owned by company. And we don't work using regular github accounts, everibody have created gh accounts with corrporate naming schema.

Only exception is, that you shouldn't work on concurrent products, etc. But it was really narrow.

You'd be foolish to start a company with immediate liabilities created due to ip and employment contract violations. Those are headwinds you might not overcome. If you think you can get away with it, then that's your call.

That said, everything is manageable. If you really believe in the effort, I would hedge by finding a well enough paying contracting gig (without any legal entanglements), then leave your current job and start marketing your offering.

At some point you have to start. It never happens if you don't. But always cover risk. Good luck

If you’re trying to find something truly novel, it might prove extremely difficult. In Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell talks about finding something truly novel and extremes of success are a combination of experience, network, and time period. If you’re working 9-5, you can imagine that it’s tough to develop experience outside of your area of expertise, develop a network, or time something perfectly.

I’m not saying this to discourage you. What I mean is, maybe move the bar to create something that’s already been validated, or semi-validated. For example, a problem that you need solving that someone else hasn’t solved yet is semi-validated.

I’m wishing you the best, coming from someone who’s validating a niche product myself after building it and raising a seed while working a full-time job.

I don't understand, how could a company own your IP if you work outside of business hours on your own computer?

Unless it's in direct competition with trade secrets of your employer's business I don't see how they could claim ownership over anything. They can't enforce ownership over generic things like writing a user management system, a billing portal or creating a searchable and sortable data view?

Loosely related is way too ambiguous. You could make a case that almost anything is loosely related to programming because it's general problem solving applied to a specific context. Any time you spend doing this process can help you in other skills. That would mean you wouldn't be able to do anything.

>employed under employment contract to assign both moral rights and intellectual property to their employer.

This is usually when you're on company time with company assets. If you're at home/coffee shop and off the clock and on your assets/pc its your IP.

Do you have a contract with current employer that has this specific language? I would understand a term for a non-compete agreement, but what you're saying does not sound right/legal from my perspective.

> I'm considering leaving a very well paid software developer job to free myself of this obligation

Do it!

It might take 6 months, a year or longer to make a profit. Can you afford that? Do you have other revenue streams? Does your current employer contract bind you to any terms if you quit?

Questions I don't need to know, but you should.

Good luck!

You know the answer. You'll need to sacrifice things, so make a list of priorities. You'll need to make your own time, so create a schedule. You'll need support, so talk to the people you need.

I would say that you should build the MVP, as a side project only. Take care that what you do won't use any company resource to build. Don't quit until you are sure this will work, or you are going to burn a very well paid bridge.

Unless you are building a deep-tech product (blockchain, AI stuffs), try to put together your project using pre-made parts. I'd recommend taking a look at Low-code/No-code tool. When you have validated your product against the market, you can then quit and focus full time on the project.

I have personally help a few startup firms build their MVP using those pre-made parts to validate their idea. Some of them works, but for those failed, they didn't waste too much time and money on it. Those ideas that work, they quickly turned to a full-fledged solution and ditched the MVP.

About the legal aspect, I think that unless the contract really specifies the IP laws, I think it's gonna be alright. Maybe consult a Lawyer about it?

> and let's face it, its found in the majority of employment contracts within the tech industry?

In my experience that is something you just tell your place of deployment beforehand. I never had such a contract, and many of my colleagues run small businesses next to work as well. That is Switzerland tho.

I communicated that I need maybe 1 hour per week for random issues from work time and that was ok.

I think what I am trying to say is that you can always talk to your employer. Reduce working hours to 80%, take less money and give it a try (if they allow it)

> Moreover, I'm considering leaving a very well paid software developer job to free myself of this obligation

I would also think about what we'll paid means for you. You can always get paid more if you agree to less free time and freedom. If youre pretty and young you could make bank with OF, but at what price? Is it actually a good job if it doesn't allow you what you want to do in your free time?

> I see no consideration for those whom are employed under employement contract to assign both moral rights and intellectual property to their employer.

There's your problem.

On one hand you can do whatever you want and see what happens, on the other hand, if you live in a litigious society or have a legal-trigger-happy employer, they could mess with you just for the sake of signalling.

I'd say: either get some sort of exemption, or change the contract. Quitting is a form of contract change. (but quitting in itself might be a whole different problem since you probably still need the salary for normal living etc.)

Personally, I don't sign contracts that would grant a potential customer or employer such rights. Granted, that can limit your options, but that is a choice (and sometimes, luxury) you have to make for yourself.

What you should do is take your specific employment contract to a lawyer to understand the limits under the case law of the state/country in question. California, for example, places strong limits on what they can stop you from doing. But yes, quitting your job may be your best bet.

A bottleneck of startups is approbation in the community. The idea is to spend time only in case other people like it as you like. But other people are also employed and have a lack of time. When I test something, I reserve some limited budget in the time I am planning the idea. Then I am calling my friends, asked if they wished to help me to do some parts of work for a small budget and told them about my goal. Some ideas are rejected before start and I not pay in this case. Some ideas cost something bigger when I think before. But for some ideas all agree to run for 4 months for example. At the end of the probe period you can estimate, you can return money you've already spent or you should forget it as passed.

Like lots of folks in the replies I have had previous employers write up letters explicitly excepting named projects from any ownership implied in the general employment contract. Of course it helps to have a good relationship with your manager/CEO. gl!

You can test B2C ideas using a landing page with a basic funnel, performance Marketing and manual reach out (e.g. FB groups).

It's much harder for B2B. Here, you usually need a good professional social network to get in touch with your target group.

Also, even if you had the perfect product, it's really hard to sell to a big company as long as you're a tiny one. So, get partners who sell for you to their existing contacts. So, if you're for example building a search engine to be integrated in company websites, pitch to larger digital agencies.

Regarding the legal stuff: your parents/ girlfriend/ best friend can be the business "owner" until you get relevant traction.

If you have no market signal, I can tell you now this idea will probably fail, so I would just get on with it and learn from the experience. You’ll be in a much better place to move forward. In general, don’t get hung up on stuff like this.

I see a few potential options:

1. Discuss with your employer to get the clause revised

2. Validate anyway

3. Change jobs to one without the clause

4. Give up on the idea

If you speak to your employer and they don't budge, make clear it's a quitting matter, unless you'd rather just forget the idea.

First, ask a good lawyer, don't trust anything on the open internet.

The law and jurisprudence in each country covers what (intellectual property or other rights) belongs to your employer and if you are allowed to work on anything outside of an employment contract. They default is usually that every activity and thought belongs to your employer. Sometimes a well crafted non-compete, non-disclosure or employment contract can override a law, but that is never certain.

Be especially careful with preparations for starting a business or defining a business idea.

So what you can do as an employee is decided by a judge and nothing else is legally sure.

https://www.saastr.com/planning-to-do-a-saas-start-up-dont-f...

> What can one do under these circumstances, and let's face it, its found in the majority of employment contracts within the tech industry?

This highly depends on where you live, what you've signed, and the precedent that exists in your locale.

In California, for example, non-competes are unenforceable whereas in other states they are. However, you may be sued for other reasons.

If you're well paid, go pay a lawyer to look through your employment contracts to learn how you could go about doing it.

You should review your contract carefully. Typically the IP is things created "in the context of your work" and that are related to the company's business or with knowledge gained through your work for the company, using company equipment, time etc. So first, you have to violate the specific terms of the contact, and second they need to find out about it and care enough to sue you. People start side projects at work all the time.

Talk to your customers first. What do they need? Are they willing to pay for it? I wouldn't bother building an MVP until you've done that first.

I don't have useful advice applicable to your case, but we're going to live in very uncertain and adversarial macroeconomic environments for the coming years. If you're going to leave your job, then make sure that you're in a very solid financial position. One rule of thumb: can you live without any income for a year? Will it make your financial position significantly unstable?

> I see no consideration for those whom are employed under employement contract to assign both moral rights and intellectual property to their employer.

(I am *not* a lawyer. I'm not even American.)

Can you set up any intellectual property through a trust? If the trust owns the IP, and the trust does not have a contract with your employer, can you write code for the trust, thus protecting it?

Just a thought.

I’m working on https://atomictessellator.com while employed.

Just be very clear when you interview that you have multiple hobbies outside of work (and show them!) and refuse to sign any non-competes or IP assignment clauses.

If you’ve already signed one it’s probably time to change jobs, that’s the only safe option.

Perhaps too late for you, but that clause in your contract was negotioable and I have never had any trouble getting it scoped to "...property/artifacts produced while performing duties required by the business during business hours". Scoping it to all intellectual property at all times is not even enforceable everywhere.

I've found Hanno's Lean Validation Playbook very useful in the past: https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2016/07/a-lean-approach-to-...

I suggest the book "The Mom Test"... quite eye opening if you are honest with your self and your ideas!

Great comments already on the moral/legal aspects so I'll address something more important, finding an opportunity.

Before writing any code, you'll likely need to do 50-200 customer development interviews to find and hone in on a new unique opportunity. So, why not start here?

Start a newsletter for the audience you’d like to one day serve.

I run a small but growing business (£0.5m) that I started in 2017. But for the first 3 years I had a job.

For most of that time it was largely an email newsletter - completely under the radar of anyone who might be looking.

Create a community/audience around the area you want to build. No one can tell you not to do it, there is no tax on it, and you can leverage it when you do have a concrete MVP.

But would investors care? That was my main motivation asking for permission rather than forgiveness. Am I missing something? nobody has mentioned this

Your contract allows it unless it is related to work your business does. The question is where do you work and what is your business?

you got to yolo to do start ups

if you’re asking questions this early in the game you’re not ready

i was just like this, i’d analyze and analyze.

starting anything involves risk, business, social, legal, and financial. you won’t ever have enough knowledge to know that everything you’re doing is okay.

this means you either go for it with one, maybe both, eyes closed or keep working for someone else.

Talk, listen, reflect… Talk, listen, reflect… Talk, listen, reflect… Keep going until someone is willing to pay.

You do it just like you interview at your employer’s competitor when you want to switch jobs:

You don’t tell them.

Get your wife/relative/friend to incorporate a company, and use that to do the validation. Jump ship when it makes sense to do so.

This is assuming you're simply being careful. If you know your employer is in the same field or looking at the same thing, see what a lawyer says.

Seek practical tips from r/overemployed

Get your brother or sister to pretend they are building it , no one is going to verify this. Once it gains enough traction consider quitting.

honestly if you have to ask this question and you can't think of actions to take by yourself, i question whether you are cut out for startup, its super risky and you seem risk adverse not only from asking the question.

i would recommend just keep looking at how to make sales. without customers you don't have a business.

Do what I did. Quit. Don’t get paid. Work for years to build your own business and fail a lot. Be poor but find happiness in the journey. Until you succeed. Then find happiness in that journey. This is the way.