HACKER Q&A
📣 cordialthank

Should I inform investors that my startup employer is a scam?


So I was hired in this startup a year ago. Its aim is to make a SaaS. It's been painfully obvious that nothing gets done about this, the only projects we work on are bizarre random demos or small open source projects on github for "marketing".

The company has not had a series A funding yet, and was almost bankrupting some months ago until a VC gave them "some" millions. Meanwhile, there's still no product, and the company pays for worldwide company trips for no purpose (no conferences or anything), pays for life coaches and frequent global flights for the CEO and who knows what else.

When I say "no product" I literally mean it. It only exists on a powerpoint slide without a single line of code implemented.

The worst part is this startup is 5-7 years old, and has gone through the bankrupt -> saved last minute by investor cycle more than one time.

Average employee stay is 6-14 months. During my employment three managers left the company, and four engineers. There's no documentation about anything because people come and go after they see there's no future in this company.

Should I anonymously inform investors that my startup employer is a scam, and if yes, how should I approach it?


  👤 jzellis Accepted Answer ✓
I'm gonna agree with qikInNdOutReply here: you work for a laundromat. If this has happened multiple times, it's entirely possible that all of the VCs involved are aware of it, and are in fact getting their money's worth. :-)

Here's my advice to you, and I'm not going to say IANAL because you don't need to be a lawyer to know this: you are working for shady people. If it is, as seems likely, a laundering front, the very last thing you want to do is "go to the investors", unless you really enjoy the feeling and weight of a custom pair of concrete shoes.

I would find another gig ASAP, and then and only then would I sit down and have a serious think about how much I cared about seeing these people get punished for what they're doing. Because the only people you should probably be going to are the SEC, and that would probably turn into a criminal case, and then you'd be getting the very strict attention of whomever set this up. And those people are probably not tech bros.

Up to you, man, but I would seriously suggest you consider this possibility.


👤 qikInNdOutReply
Its a money laundering machine.. the oligarch invest dirty money into it, they buy equipment from other oligarch conglomerate companies, washing the money in the process.

Just build your dream project there, and then take it with you. Its basically a mafiosi incubator and the software is decoration and they do not recognize the value of it missing or ever having existed. Could be other things to. Empty houses in the middle of L.A or NY. Large Resource storages or car traders, dealing in circles.

Just make sure, there is no paper trail showing that you knew.


👤 logicalmonster
> Ask HN: I have a job making money without being forced to do anything difficult. Please help me figure out how I can fuck up my situation.

👤 fasteo
>>> When I say "no product" I literally mean it. It only exists on a powerpoint slide without a single line of code implemented.

It seems obvious to me that VC is part of the scam

>>> Should I anonymously inform investors that my startup employer is a scam, and if yes, how should I approach it?

I wouldn't but, if you decide to inform don't report to the VC, but the people/entities above this VC (could be another VC, funds, physical persons, etc).

Just be careful, it seems that you are looking through a very narrow window here.


👤 BWStearns
You just gave me flashbacks to this dude I contracted for. Dude had me working on utterly random stuff for like less than a week at a time. "Hey, make a visualization tool in Unity!" "uhhh ok but I don't know C#, and the backend is only 10% done, I suggest we focus--" "just do it! we have to move fast!"

I eventually started to get roped into investor meetings and he was just straight up lying to investors; nothing wrong with a little optimism or whatnot, but suggesting that you present-tense have some non-existent capability that'd take years to develop is ballsy. Paychecks started getting late and then not coming at all and I had to threaten to sue him.

Just give 0 notice on payday and gtfo.


👤 heassler
If you see fraud and you don't shout fraud, you are a fraud. Document your findings and do what is appropriate. After all, those VCs are managing people's money. They need to know.

👤 hnbad
Find a new job ASAP. The company will fail eventually. If the investors aren't doing their due diligence, that's on them. Investors expect companies to fail more than succeed and they budget accordingly.

If the company has indeed defrauded its investors, that's between the company leadership and the investors. Unless you're involved directly enough to be potentially liable, this is above your pay grade.

If you think you may have been involved in defrauding the investors, talk to a lawyer. Otherwise, shut your mouth until you've found a new place and then carefully evaluate what you say to whom to minimize the risk of being thrown under the bus.

You'd be horrified if you knew how many companies sell products that don't exist beyond organically evolving powerpoint presentations. It only becomes fraud when the companies fail to deliver and can't meet their obligations and the customers aren't willing to agree to alternative resolutions.

It sounds like your employer is currently not very good at generating sales at all so the only defrauded party would be the investors and that would require knowing what your employer actually contractually agreed to deliver in return for the investment. Unless you're privvy to what's in those contracts, my advice would be to zip it and GTFO.


👤 saluki
Just make your exit, find another job, it's not worth your risk to pull back the curtain, the VC is responsible to be aware of the progress the startup is making and what their burn rate is, where their spending is going.

Stick around till you have an even better gig lined up.


👤 tauntz
Ah a company that sells dreams and promises to its investors while the founders/employees use the money for hookers and coke. A (repeating and common) story as old as the startup world itself :)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427783/


👤 Cymrukicks
Name the company, I'd love to get an additional job there collecting money for free.

👤 psyclobe
Go ahead and try it, I assure you that will be the end of your job there.

Listen to others here, just leave. You will not break into that fuct up situation, you cannot improve it, no one will listen to you, and if you blow the whistle you'll be done.


👤 robin_reala
Presumably the investors are aware and this is some sort of tax / laundering scam?

👤 throwawaywork0
Unless you want to do more business specifically with said investors, I would not recommend this. Whistle blowers almost always suffer and in this situation you have no moral obligation to the public but rather to some private figures. If I were you, I'd enjoy having an easy job. That said, is your company hiring?

👤 petesergeant
> Should I anonymously inform investors that my startup employer is a scam, and if yes, how should I approach it?

It's literally the investors' job to have figured this out


👤 Neil44
My gut reaction is no. It does sound like a dumpster fire so I would leave. You feel a moral obligation to inform investors which is good but be open to the possibillity that there's more going on than you are aware of so things might not be as black & white as they appear in practical and moral terms.

👤 goncalo-r
I would just find another job, let them crash and burn on their own

👤 blitzar
Who says the 'investors' are not in on the scam?

Even if you were to blow the whistle, do it after you have left for greener pastures. By then you wont care but perhaps you will ...


👤 austinjp
Get out, then anonymously warn the appropriate financial authority/regulator. Optionally, and if it's safe for you and for them, you might want to anonymously warn the employees like yourself, but this might be impossible or unwise.

Consider that someone else may already be planning to warn the authorities. To avoid or minimise involvement in any legal issues yourself if the company goes down, you should be able to prove you were either naive (very difficult) or had misgivings -- in which case you may need to demonstrate intention to act.

You've already written this post, so if you can prove authorship that would be good. An encrypted string in your profile, perhaps.

As others have said, you really need to talk with a lawyer.

The reasons I suggest this course of action: be the change you want to see in the world. You'll feel better about yourself. God knows what this organisation is actually doing; you were a naive cog in the machine but you're no longer naive, and you don't need that responsibility on your mind.

Finally, regardless of your actions, you should think about how your CV/résumé reflects the time you've spent at this company. Don't hide the truth, but of course don't flat-out divulge everything.


👤 jmkni
So many questions! What do you do then? What do the managers do? The engineers?? How have they survived for over 5 years??

👤 MrDresden
Personally, I would feel uncomfortable staying with such a company.

My advice would be to leave as soon as possible. If no technical work is happening then you are not building anything for your resume, and if the company goes under then its bad practices might be revealed. That would make the time you spent there seem like a toxic spot on your career.

On revealing them, I feel the VC is required to do their due diligence and the amount of legal headache and exposure you as an individual would have to deal with if ever discovered to be the revealing party is not worth it.

Exit, and tell friends to avoid being hired by this firm.


👤 watwut
> Should I anonymously inform investors that my startup employer is a scam, and if yes, how should I approach it?

Imo, the good first step is to contact a layer with relevant expertise and consult what your steps should be. So that you don't accidentally break law or otherwise get yourself in trouble, so that your whistleblowing way is most solid possible and so that you don't accidentally out yourself.

The layer can also help you figure out what is actual fraud and what is not.


👤 manholio
Go into the CEO's office, ask for a large raise and tell them the product is in a very bad shape and will require you to put your utmost effort to turn the ship around. If word were to get out, it would surely kill the company!

After you get the raise, go into your cubicle, close email and phone, and start working on your own projects until the moving guys come to take your desk.


👤 pkrotich
Wait - how and what did you get hired for? Did you ask any questions about product and revenue?

It seems to me that you went in blindly and now you’re trying to cleanse your conscience. You think the investor didn’t do due diligence? I doubt it - sounds like a money cleaning operation to me!

You won’t get anything out of reporting - get the hell out now!


👤 dublin
A tip (probably best anonymous, but accompanied with some actual, real, confirmable data/documentation) to the IRS would go much further than one to either the investors or the SEC. That goes double if your managment is even slightly MAGA. The literal army of IRS agents coming very soon will be out looking for people to harass and eat the substance our of... (Note that the 87,000 IRS agent increase is several time the agency's total size and the additional $80 billion funded compares to Russia's total military budget of $66B USD!)

👤 sshine
> The worst part is this startup is 5-7 years old

So not exactly a startup any more.

> has gone through the bankrupt -> saved last minute by investor cycle more than one time.

This isn't a scam. It's risky/bad investment.


👤 lemonscoop
Based on a similar experience, I would say it's best to leave.

Around a year ago I also left a 8-9 year "startup" with some of the same fundamentals issues but at least we had a basic demo even though it was very insecure. That wasn't the primary reason for me leaving but their attempt at A funding was taking a lot longer then expected and the contract was up.

Interesting enough the company I used to work for was mentioned on hn at one point, but this was many years ago. They changed industries which is understandable.


👤 arcastroe
Apologies I have no advice to give to your question (others have provided plenty).

However, if you don't mind sharing additional details, I'm interested in knowing how you arrived at the position. Did the company seem legit from the outside when you first started? Did you seek out the job, or were they the ones to initially reach out to recruit you? Knowing what you know now, what are the things you would watch out for to avoid falling prey to a scam company like this?


👤 bombcar
It’s not worth it. I knew someone who was tasked with violating the laws of thermodynamics at a startup - and so he worked out the math that would disprove the second and enjoyed his time.

Do the same. They either know or don’t want to know.


👤 late2part
What country do you live in? If this was me and the country was in the USA, I'd hire an attorney and have him (under privilege) anonymously report this to the investors, as well as the SEC, IRS, and FBI.

👤 CommanderData
What's stopping you from working another job at the same time?

It sounds like there isn't much work to be done and even if you are found out I don't think they have enough motivation to care.


👤 adoga
If someone where to want to try and build their own startup, this seems like a perfect situation to be in. Does anyone know how to land one of these?

👤 55555
Doesn’t sound like a scam; sounds like a bad business.

👤 iancmceachern
Get out, focus on bettering yourself and don't let crooks and dishonest people drag you down. Don't let them negatively impact you.

👤 abrax3141
I think you’re making this up. Not that it’s not a fun thing to muse about, but it’s too textbook-bad to be true.

👤 senectus1
Leaving deprives it of your skills and experience that alone will damage them. That's probably enough.

👤 djohnston
Are you guys hiring?

👤 b20000
welcome to how 80% of startups roll

most people capable of raising money have connections… buddies and social capital

i never raised money for my company. meanwhile a well known VC funded a competitor because of connections or because they like the founder’s “energy”. after a few years the company went bankrupt. the guy went on to raise money again. we had far superior technology far beyond what they were able to develop. it would have been cheaper to acquire us.

TL;DR most peole who succesfully raise do so because of different reasons than having a product or revenue.


👤 skyzyx
Yes

👤 qwerty456127
This is a moral choice you should make yourself.