HACKER Q&A
📣 sremani

Boring but important tech no one is working on?


In the 2020s most old generation people are retiring and not only the replacement generations smaller but there is gap in generational knowledge transfer. What do you think is important tech out there in which are we are losing our collective knowledge and hard won wisdom?


  👤 iammjm Accepted Answer ✓
Educational games. Hear me out. The way we teach us basically how we did it 500 years ago. This is stupid, boring and not scalable. We dont have enough teachers, attention span is short, education is costly. So we need something that scales, is fun and involves all types of media plus gamifies education. Think Skyrim or GTA meets MS Encarta

👤 dragostudor
My thoughts exactly. Knowledge transfer in manufacturing / industrial environments is something that I'm working on.

- Language models / NLP applications for processing large amount of technical text data (SOP, documentation, technical data, machine text logs, voice to text, video data processing for speeding up corrective action, training, onboarding and highlighting areas of improvement / bottlenecks), digitising documents and extracting failure reasons / equipment names / spare parts / processes involved and making associations between them for pareto analysis, better search or process improvement recommendations

- Recommending the next steps to fix something / remote intervention / do something etc. Lowering the expertise threshold required for technicians, electricians, mechanics or reliability engineers to be effective.

- Enabling operators to become data scientists by enabling to train AI models via their day to day activities / analysis. Building better UX in general and providing simple tools that even a toddler could use.

- Autonomous factory use-cases / supply chain automation.

Would love to discuss with people who find these things exciting


👤 sowbug
Less a specific technology and more a mindset. Repairing things around the house. Today, it's almost always rational to throw out the broken thing and buy a new one. There are a bunch of reasons why that's true: cost of one's own labor, lack of discrete replacement parts, lack of repair documentation, improvements in technology since original purchase, risk of further breakage, risk of injury to self, etc.

But the real cost is that people generally don't know how things work anymore. They're just black boxes, even simple things like a coffee maker or a clothes dryer. Which further reduces the demand for repairability, which seems like a downward spiral toward everything being disposable.


👤 thewebcount
I would say learning about any form of computing not related to Unix. Many of us old-timers grew up using systems (both home and corporate) that weren't variations of Unix, and I feel like CS education is turning into a Unix mono-culture these days. User interfaces from things like VAX, Apple ][, IBM Mainframes, etc. The file system on macOS 8/9 which didn't use paths and has always allowed spaces in names because it isn't interacted with via command line, for example. The VAX file system that automatically versioned documents without the user needing to worry about it. (I think the Apple Lisa did something like this, too.)

Don't get me wrong - there's a lot of bad ideas in those systems, too. (Like why do I have to use "RUN" vs. "BRUN" on the Apple ][ depending on what type of program it is?) But finding and promoting the better ideas and teaching young people about them is, I think , important and risks being lost otherwise.

Learning about failures from older systems is always interesting, too. Why couldn't Atari and Amiga compete against Apple and Microsoft, for example? I think things like that are important to understand going forward, too.


👤 dredmorbius
Railroads. Specifically freight rail.

There is stunningly little literature on any R&D in conventional freight rail transport, something I discovered when looking for any published research some months back.

High-speed rail, yes. Regular old freight, no.

Contrast this with autonomous and electrified trucking as alternatives, with which rail could offer considerable synergies.

I'd suspect that break-bulk, trainset assembly and disassembly, and routing might all offer opportunities.

But ... nada.

I suspect other modalities within the transport sector might be similar, notably ocean shipping.


👤 version_five
After reading the comments here, I think a key issue isn't so much humanity losing knowledge, as it is "locals" for some definition losing it. Manufacturing is alive and well in many places, somebody knows how to build or fix your lawnmower, it's just that the middle class has lost that knowledge, etc. I believe there continues to be more "repatriation" of knowledge - look at semiconductor manufacturing, but it's less a question of it ever being lost.

I'd also say that "preparedness" is generally something nobody is working on. Despite all the shit that happened with Covid, I don't feel like we're even slightly better prepared for an actual lethal pandemic, like with double digit death rates for example. It's not clear we've changed anything other than some political jockeying.

Another example is earthquake/ tsunami preparedness. Everyone knows the west coast is going to be destroyed, we just ignore it because its "boring" and nobody wants to think about it


👤 lettergram
Everything agriculture, most farmers had their children go off to school and then the cities. Now it’s only really people in their 50s in the fields.

As someone who has a farm and regularly asks for knowledge transfers from the older farmers around me.. it’ll be difficult when they move on.

It’s things you wouldn’t expect either, like how to install a new piston & hydraulics line on a tractor. Or how to repair an old diesel motor. Some people on HN might know that, I know some of that now. However, generally they are all older and their kids moved on. In terms of a generational knowledge gap I can think of no greater one.


👤 api
Improving the core of the power grid to prepare for the near-doubling of power demand that will occur when everyone drives EVs, and also making the grid more maintainable, more robust, and easier to fix if damaged by anything from mundane causes to EMPs.

Some thoughts:

* Equipment to allow existing runs to be upgraded to higher voltages or even HVDC while being compatible on the other side with existing equipment and grid voltages. That way existing rights of way can carry far more power over existing wires.

* Smaller more modular cheaper substation equipment that can be slotted in and rapidly replaced, eventually to replace the mega-transformers and stuff that are very hard to physically ship places. Today there are substations with equipment so unwieldy that it would be physically challenging to ship replacement equipment.

* Lower cost methods of stringing new high power transmission lines to bring distant renewable energy to cities.

* Make undersea power lines as cheap (or nearly so) as undersea fiber allowing "global supergrid" systems to share renewable energy.

* Protection equipment or techniques to reduce damage from solar storms or EMP.

The power grid is becoming more and more central and essential to human life, and we are about to drop tons more demand on it via electrification of transport and HVAC (heat pumps). Yet it seems like there's not much innovation there. Right now if everyone comes home and plugs in their car it crashes the grid in many places, and this won't do.

Batteries are hot, but they're still too expensive to back up whole cities or regions. The need for batteries can be greatly reduced if the grid can be made bigger, wider, and at least an order of magnitude more reliable.


👤 samwillis
Traditional draftsmanship (not really tech is it?), as in with a pen/pencil on a draftsman table, has completely disappeared.

My father is a (relatively) recently retired Architect, he ran a small but specialist firm of about 20 people. By the time he retired about 5 years ago there was no one in the office that had ever been trained in traditional draftsmanship, only himself. It’s a lost art.

There are now almost two generations of working architects, those that learnt 2D CAD in the 90s and early 00s who still think in 3d and translate it themselves to 2d in cad (a little like traditional draftsmanship). And those since who have only ever worked in 3d and used the tooling to “project” 2d elevations and sections.

I trained at university in the early 2000s in Industrial Design, we did some traditional drafting lesions (maybe three or four weeks). But then jumped straight to 3d CAD and never looked back. I suspect they don’t even do those lessons now, and in fact most kids have probably done some 3D cad at school, maybe only 10% had when I started.


👤 lkrubner
Secretaries. The corporation of the mid-20th Century was run by an army of secretaries. They allowed for an important kind of flexibility. They've been replaced by software, which is more rigid, and which does harm because of its lack of flexibility.

Software engineers tend to over-estimate the productivity gains that come from software, while underestimating how much we lose to the rigidness of software (which is often the reflection of the underlying data schema). It costs money to change software. By contrast, older systems of organization depended on armies of secretaries, who knew when to bend the rules. The flexibility of having a human enforce rules, but also be able to bend them as needed, allowed an important kind of productivity benefit. We've lost that benefit as we have mostly purged secretaries out of corporations and replaced them with software.

On the theme of "software sucks," if you don't mind a comical, personal story, I shared this event from last month, when my mom was in the hospital (my conclusion is that the rigidity of software systems in hospitals is making hospitals worse):

http://www.smashcompany.com/technology/software-is-making-ho...


👤 kradeelav
Online safety education for the younger generations. There's of course outliers, but as a rule I've seen some scary amounts of zoomers who have zero idea of why giving out a photo of their government ID card (unredacted) to total strangers for age verification is a very bad idea.

It's a far cry from the old "don't give out your A/S/L/(and name)" that I got.


👤 dangets
Joe Armstrong gave a good talk on forgotten ideas in Computer Science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I_jE0l7sYQ


👤 chaps
Extracting deeply useful information from tens/hundreds/thousands of thousands of scanned PDFs in a way that dumps its information, regardless of structure (eg, tables, text), into a relational database that's (mostly) trivially queryable and repeatable. Preferably open source. This is such a hard problem right now.

👤 a_square_peg
How to design thermally efficient buildings - especially everything that's going on with climate crisis. The thermal comfort solution to everything in the last 70 years has been to put an HVAC on it, whereas if the buildings were designed properly, the need to actively maintain internal temperature is minimized.

After talking to architects, I'm dismayed that basic heat transfer is not a part of their curriculum.


👤 tylerlh
Supply chain/logistics. I've been simultaneously surprised and unsurprised by the relatively minuscule number of people interested in driving technology and change for this space forward compared to other spaces.

👤 Balgair
Bit of an entire category: Older scientific equipment.

Typically, you have one graybeard down in the basement that knows how those old centrifuges/distilizers/ionificators/etc work. Things that an entire building is really dependent on. Not only that, but they typically know the limits and how to get good science out of them.

It's more of a $$$ issue though. Loads of these old machines are dying off with the people that know them. This then opens up the market for the new people to come in and reinvent the wheel, sometimes literally so. It costs more, sure, but it keeps things moving along too.

If you get the chance, talk to these old graybeards and hear their stories. Most of it is mumbo jumbo, but man, they are great stories.


👤 aappleby
No single thing, but in general the gradually declining fraction of people capable of understanding complex systems "from top to bottom" concerns me.

I have seen far too many projects become locally-smart but globally-incoherent due to the gradual dissolution of systemic understanding over time.


👤 bravetraveler
Systems tuning, but it's an area that really got me to learn what I have over the years. I realize I'm a bit biased.

It's amazing the number of production issues I've fixed with simple sysctl parameters.

The Linux kernel defaults don't fit very well in this huge-cluster/scaling out world


👤 adamredwoods
Health insurance navigation and transparency (US):

People who go through dealing with health insurance: a lot of this knowledge is difficult to transfer, but is very valuable, and usually transferred through word-of-mouth. People who suddenly have a need for a treatment or surgery, don't always know what their options are and how to deal with insurance claims in the best manner, or to maximize coverage and deal with extra circumstances.


👤 srkirk
Efficient extraction of metals (and materials that can be broken down to useful precursors) from landfills and 'e-waste'. My PhD supervisor worked for years before he retired, on, among other things, magnetic separation using inhomogeneous magnetic fields. It would be a great pity if such work were forgotten.

👤 CSMastermind
There are shockingly few people maintaining the video encoding packages that most people rely on.

https://xkcd.com/2347/ makes me think the same is true of image software as well.

I'm pretty sure there's a timezone database that's maintained by two guys and literally everything depends on it to get timezones right.

When I was at Microsoft ~10 years ago there was a single guy who truly understood how tables in Word worked. I'm sure they've fixed it by now but back then if you wanted to touch the tables code in Word you had to talk to the tables guy to make sure you wouldn't break everything.

If I remember correctly there's a lot of low level networking code that's basically in this state. I think ntp is maintained by a single person. Curl was written by a single person, not sure who maintains it.

Tons of stuff in the geospatial world is owned and maintained by surprisingly few people like proj and gdal. I'm almost certain I saw something about all GPS code in the world relying on a package maintained by a single person.


👤 amelius
Computer science. We used to talk about algorithms in terms of big-O notation. Now we just talk in terms of how fast it runs on the newest Nvidia cards. Also, most discussions here are about how you can glue existing stuff together and turn it into a profit. I hardly see any real CS anymore these days on online forums, let alone progress. Closest thing I remember is an article that discussed whether CSS stylesheets are Turing complete.

👤 georgeburdell
Not tech but I think millenials, gen Z, and younger have lost the know-how to make a dollar independently of mega corps. I never see kids going door to door mowing lawns anymore, for example.

👤 iambateman
I think there is some truth to the generational knowledge transfer because the tech industry is still young. That said, we should not expect the generation gap to play an outsized role in tech compared to manufacturing, engineering, etc.

Where the technology is mission critical, healthcare companies have worked for decades to train new developers on 1980’s tech.

In the same way that all cultural understanding can become extinct, we probably are losing some bits of wisdom as older generations age out. The problem is it’s not obvious what bits of wisdom are being lost, even to the aged.

Finally, given Moore’s law, many of the constraints which drove early decisions no longer apply. As long as we are on a hyper-growth curve in technology cost and adoption rates, we will suffer from a lack of wisdom, and need lots of extra energy to be spent on bad ideas in order to make progress.

Eventually, when growth rates slow down, we will have a more developed sense of what technological wisdom looks like in the long term. The good news is, that will happen on its own. The bad news is It’s a long way off.


👤 jeffreygoesto
(Civil) Nuclear technology.

👤 carapace
Rare plants, and cultivating (not a pun) biological diversity.

For example, there are hundreds of varieties of tomato. There are wild tomatoes from the Andes Mountains to the Everglades. There are thousands of varieties of brassica (a huge genus of plants that includes bok choy, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, kohlrabi, cabbage, rutabaga, and turnip, etc.)

I was just hearing from the proprietor of a seed company that many of the old guard are retiring and some are having trouble finding people to carry the torch.


👤 tannhaeuser
Mentioned before by an ex-librarian in this thread as information loss, I'd go further and say we're loosing control of our language in the digital sphere. That's why I'm holding on to markup technologies (SGML/XML) as our best bet for evolving the web and other communication standards - because the alternative are memes, TikTok, and other, worse corporate attention grabs.

👤 Buttons840
GUI toolkits? Maybe?

I wonder how much of the "everything is a service, access this calculator for a small monthly fee" problem is due to how poor GUI toolkits are.


👤 systemvoltage
Industrial automation and manufacturing:

- Need a dedicated degree (2 year as well as 4 year) in Manufacturing

- Trade schools and apprenticeship programs that do not sound like scam

- Automated material movement and handling

- Machine vision, automation of quality assurance

- Automated mold making and plastic injection molding optimization (still done by humans and takes 4 months)

- Factory software (ERP, MRP, MES, SPC, etc.)


👤 jzellis
The ability for a single person to create a technology, digital or otherwise.

👤 bvanderveen
Machining.

No child left without a 5-axis milling machine!


👤 totemandtoken
Possibly industrial automation and control systems

I heard once from a recruiter that a lot of the air traffic communications in the defense industry are losing old timers and there's not enough young blood to replace them. That could've just been him trying to sell me the job though


👤 barbarbar
All things related to mainframe, cics, cobol etc. It seems like it has been tried to replace it for decades. But it also seems like that replacement is not getting anywhere.

👤 _448
Going back to basics. The fun there is in understanding the low-levels and being able to tinker is one of the most satisfying thing. Unfortunately we have added so much abstract layers over things using technology that no one knows anymore what exactly is happening under those abstract layers.

I remember my Dad use to do DIY of almost everything in the house, Radio repair, Grinder-Mixer repair, TV repair, Plumbing, Carpentry, Stove repair, Fan repair, Building his own tools for work, Electricals of the house, Sewing machine repair, Scooter repair(hell, he once even built a small moped for his boss's daughter!). And he had limited resources i.e. lack of tools. His education? A basic Diploma in electronics, in native language(not English) in a remote village and completed just few years after the country became independent from British rule?

But he was not unique. Most of my neighbours use to do DIY of most things. We are losing that art.


👤 austinjp
Making-do and mending (repairing your own clothing, furniture, utensils etc).

Composting, and gardening for food. Pickling. Fermenting.

Cooking large, healthy meals together in intergenerational groups, and communally with strangers.

I could go on, but basically anything and everything our grandparents did, and is now only done in "the West" in dwindling rural communities.


👤 guywithahat
This may not be the type of answer you're looking for but near me insurance companies (AmFam, Sentry, etc) pay extremely well for the area and pay big money to purchase startups

👤 ledgerdev
This is a good video on the transfer of knowledge and fragility of technology. https://youtu.be/ZSRHeXYDLko

👤 kkfx
Lisp, Smalltalk are the first family of important tech fading to oblivion due to time passing and corporate interest. Most people do not think them in such terms but they represent The Real Desktop tech, the user programmable flexible environment to live in to free the power of computing. Without it, like today, our civilization lost an immense opportunity. We need people that work to push desktop systems, single-applications flexible systems where anything is a function, easy to combine, change and extend as the user wish. Simple and powerful enough end users can use and change.

Domestic food production is another, far simpler, not that exiting, but still important: these days some children do not even know where came from something they eat. Without any catastrophic scenario any society need to know at least superficially anything essential to survive. This include for instance basic knowledge about tools for instance to grind and pack meat to make salami, tools to sterilize and store vacuumed foods etc new tools to modernize and made such process a pleasure to do.

Last but not least generic knowledge, generic tools. We have gazillions of hyper-specialist in any fields and veeeeery few able to see the big picture. We have gazillion of tools for doing a thing and only one. We need generic stuff. Standards not made like https://xkcd.com/927/ but made and updated to be useful and spread. This is the essence of most tech, including the generic desktops cited above, including solar panels with maaaany cells one after another, including bricks, simple thing we can use to made a wall, a house, a bridge, ... it's very hard to made anything in such domain, but it's tremendously useful once done. In the past we have seen some examples here and there, nowadays nobody care.


👤 throwaway9870
EDI gateways and conversion. Super important to large companies and the existing companies that can convert and manage the stream of it are incompetent at best. Small companies that interface with large companies use 3rd party gateways for conversion and compliance purposes. Great MRR business if you don't mind boring and no how to build reliable systems.

👤 MarkNewman
It seems to me the problem is we are losing all the knowledge of the 'old generation'. This problem is wider than just in the tech industry. What we need is a tech that can capture the knowledge of Elders and individuals before it is lost. And also be able to access it in some way to answer questions and solve problems without having to analyse each person's contribution individually.

👤 madduci
Agriculture. Especially the maintenance such as watering large fields, and surveillance where electricity and internet connection might be scarce.

There are a lot of challenges, especially in typical fields in South Europe, where large and automated tractors aren't an option.


👤 whiteboardr
Construction

👤 aryehof
Lessons learned modeling complex systems, outside the domains of computing and the data sciences, into code.

Over a decade was spent by enterprises designing software using Structured Analysis (data-flow modeling) - lessons lost. Functional decomposition as a design methodology lessons learned - forgotten. Data modeling lessons learned - we are all the way back to people proposing stored procedures for logic. Object-oriented modeling - deprecated, unfashionable and obscured by “its about messaging” or “code organization” in a world that supposedly should be entirely functional.


👤 JJMcJ
A lot of manufacturing operations are having trouble getting the skilled workers they need, like precision machinists, because the older generation is retiring and there aren't enough people learning those occupations.

When you read discussions of "going into the trades" instead of going to college, there is almost never a mention of the skilled trades. It all seems to be construction, and I think that's a mistake.


👤 skadamat
Bunch of suggestions in this list!

http://worrydream.com/#!/ClimateChange


👤 jprdz
A search engine for court cases (every country has something of this sort) bootstrapping latest semantic search, topic modeling, summarization and other cool use cases once you have vectorized the text in each court case. (LLM)

👤 osigurdson
It’s obvious that knowledge relating to oil and gas extraction is going to disappear in 20-50 years.

Engineering knowledge relating to ICE engines will also disappear (though it seems gas turbines will be with us for a little longer).

I’m not sure it matters that much however. If we ever need these things again in the future it seems that we could re-learn it in a decade or two.


👤 kwyrick
I think legacy technology experience is important when comparing the efficiency of current technology. The web provides access to legacy technology and it depends on industry requirements and practices when it comes to utilizing the various technology options.

👤 simonjgreen
Copper based telephony systems. So much knowledge in peoples heads, not just technical how-to but system and network knowledge. These things were built by people with quirks understood by people and are mission critical still.

They will be replaced by IP and fibre, but not yet.


👤 bovermyer
If I had to guess, I'd say food distribution and preservation. But that's just a guess.

👤 vyrotek
The mainframe code running the IRS, airline, banking, and credit card systems.

👤 ramboldio
Government Software.

👤 xylon
I always wondered why cars dont give an indication when a bulb blows. Should be pretty easy to do and improve road safety.

👤 throwaway0asd
Data transfer over the internet without servers, like radio and telephone.

👤 tester756
Maybe IBM's Mainframe? I mean reliable hardware, etc.

👤 faangiq
Nothing worth solving is boring.

👤 iere
hydrogen fuel cell instead of long waiting li-on battery.

👤 Avlin67
personnaly i used to learn a lot while developing games

👤 unixhero
Faster cd burning

👤 what-imright
My startup is working on solutions to crop failure scenarios such as from a nuclear war. Unfortunately we calculate there are probable outcomes where the only reasonable course of action is for one selected group to actually consume parts of the population in order to survive a nuclear winter. And so we’re building an automated system to take a newly deceased human being and create as many wholesome and nutritious meals from the remains as possible, in a dignified manner. We’re also trying to figure out how the consumption could play out in an orderly fashion where the old and those with non communicable diseases (but are never the less dependent at a time where the burden is too great for society), can be respectfully consumed first, and then in order of value to a future society, with those scoring least being respectfully consumed first, and so on.

We are envisioning a type of sleeping capsule with a cover that seals the user from the elements and fallout materials, providing clean air, heat and water. These could be deployed quickly. As the starvation continues the capsules would, every other night, fairly, amongst those of an equal social value, reduce the oxygen during sleep for a painless and stress free passing, and then alert others in the prospect to convert the remains into new rations.

It’s out there, but we’re serious. Based on reasonable logic in a bad situation. Important, but nobody seems to care. When 5 billion people have nothing left to eat then they’ll care.