HACKER Q&A
📣 unknownaccount

Why do you trust electronic voting machines?


Anyone who frequents this site should know that in any electronic system with a microprocessor there are a million and one ways that data can be tampered with in the hardware, firmware, or software. Often times in USA it’s just a regular old sql database of some type storing the results on top a regular Linux/Windows computer. I think it’s obviously a huge scandal that “electronic voting machines” have been normalized in public consciousness. Whenever I tell people it’s ridiculous that electronic machines have taken over the paper ballot box im called crazy or paranoid. Wake up people! Electronic voting machines are a scam used to undermine your democracies. The only way to fix the problem and restore faith in humanity is to scrap all electronic voting machines and go back to paper. (Or, how about an extremely simple electronic circuit, 2 buttons, printed in copper suspended in acrylic so anyone in the room can verify with their own eyes the circuit isn’t tampered with, as long as they can understand simple circuits. these circuits will be directly connected to a tabulator machine similarly implemented as a simple circuit located in a public room, suspended within acrylic, and with a visible copper connection to the voting booths, which would have extremely thin opaque walls for privacy but also ensuring that you can see it’s not being siphoned off. The open hardware folks can create the simplest most effective circuit that’s still easily be auditable by the human eye. )


  👤 smt88 Accepted Answer ✓
Where are the untrustworthy systems you're worried about?

There are no 100% digital voting systems in the US to my knowledge. Where I live, we have a printout that we can review and then hand over to be stored securely as a paper trail.

There are also multiple checks and balances where they confirm that final votes make sense, and if the counts are off, they count the paper ballots.

To compromise an election, you'd have to take over thousands of machines in multiple states, bypass multiple independent human reviews, and be able to predict where the important counties were going to be. It's impossible.


👤 legitster
Voting machine manufacturers and election overseers responded to the criticisms! The vast majority of electronic voting in the US today is done with a physical paper receipt paper trail: https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voting...

Notice that nearly every state requires voters to approve the paper copy of their vote.

The digital record is only used to speed up tabulation. In the case of recounts or contested elections, paper records are hand tabulated by humans (a recent example were the Arizona recounts for the 2020 election).

Where are you located that you didn't have a paper receipt you were asked to approve when you voted?


👤 specialist
Trust is the wrong word.

Confidence in the results is only possible thru mutual distrust. Meaning all belligerents recognize and honor the count.

The gold standard for our Australian ballot (private voting, public counting) style system is paper ballots cast at poll sites, tabulated using optical scanners, with results posted publicly the moment the polls close.

With postal ballots, the higher volume jurisdictions use image scanners. Think fax scanners with OCR software to identify the votes. Adjudication is done electronically, by updating the database.

Further, many jurisdictions scan postal ballots as they are received, before election day, running daily summary reports. The fiction is that "final tabulation" is the final report.

For postal ballots, signature verification is being automated. Computers automatically compare ballot's signature with voter's recorded signature. Back when I studied election integrity (20004 thru 2010), the error rate was ~10%, with no independent auditing or verification.

For postal ballots, 1% are lost in transit. What the USPS calls UAA (undelivered as addressed). Meaning a fraction of voters are being silently disenfranchised every election.


👤 tomohawk
So far, none of the machines have passed the Nevada Gaming Commissions inspections. That would be the minimum criteria. Machines that don't at least pass this level of scrutiny (all of them) are not something you can trust.

That commission has long experience inspecting devices to ensure that they are fair and impervious to unobservable tampering.

Once someone actually manufactures such a machine, then it needs to be used in a system that can detect fraudulent behavior, just like banks do. The system must require an official id, and must ensure voting privacy (sorry - mail-in ballots fail on both of these). It does no good to have a great machine if it will be subject to adulterated or coerced input.


👤 detaro
You are asking the wrong audience, fairly sure "paper ballots are better" is the dominant opinion here.

👤 Isamu
I believe there was an MIT study done after the contentious 2000 US election that compared election methods and their error rates.

None had a zero error rate. Fully electronic was not preferable because of the lack of audit trail. The best system seemed to be paper with scanners. The error rate was among the lowest and it is fully auditable.

After this study came out I was disappointed that my state chose fully electronic.

But before this last election we went to paper with scanners. The big advantage of course is the ability to recount by hand to your heart’s content. Which of course we did.


👤 Rackedup
The only way I would trust electronic voting is if we had a secure end-to-end verifiable e-voting system using zero knowledge proofs, so that you can verify that your vote was counted.

For now, paper voting is safer.


👤 57FkMytWjyFu
" slater 4 days ago [–]

I think you've brought this up a couple of times now. Ask yourself, which is likelier:

1) It's a great big conspiracy and everyone hopes nobody sees your posts about this clear backdoor technology, and the mods try their best to delete it every time you post.

-- OR --

2) You're somehow mistaken and it's not all that big of a deal. "


👤 IceMetalPunk
I would counter by asking, "why do you trust paper voting?" As long as there are people in the process, there's room for corruption; that's just a fact you'll have to live with. With decent encryption, an electronic voting machine is at least as safe as paper ballots.

👤 t-3
I don't. Neither does my voting jurisdiction. The electronic counts are only used for early estimates and everything is officially counted by hand.

👤 eimrine
I asked a very similar question [1] it has some interesting responses from Indian citizens who seems to be the only people who trust them because of [2].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32436338

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booth_capturing


👤 rogerthis
I really would like to hear the opinion of HN people about the Brazilian system.

👤 codefreeordie
As far as I can tell, largely they are trusted when they result is the desired one and distrusted when the result is not the desired one, since people mostly care about making sure that they get the result they want, not with making sure that the process is "fair".

👤 yuan43
Do you realize you are preaching to the choir?