~60% of the jobs are with outsourcing companies like toptal, gigster and so on.
My labour is a commodity but even lower paying jobs expects you to be a superstar leetcoder, with the wherewithal to go through 6-8 interviews and IQ test.
I don't see progress in my career, i hate technology, i hate what this industry has become - it's not something I want to do anymore.
Nearing my 40s, so my profile is less appealing to employers, this field is very oriented to young people.
Anyone managed to move from front-end to another role, while leveraging your existing work history?
Appreciate any guidance, thanks.
So I see that you have two options both of which shouldn’t happen before first taking a small break: 1. Continue to work in the industry and reduce your emotional investment. Hint: great places for that are big corporates. 2. Continue to work while upskilling in another field or your current field depending on what you prefer.
Depression often comes with the temptation to catastrophise the situation, avoid that urge. Seek out others who can be objective and talk you through it, be prepared to hear their answers.
I started out front-end, did a lot of my own side projects to get backend stuff. PHP is pretty good despite the hate because not many people want to do it these days but a legit and easy way to get some backend experience.
I've managed to learn React and Next enough to build stuff in them, but I'm not especially passionate about React - it seems like it's ridiculously hard to do very basic stuff in it and the workarounds all seem like they were designed by the criminally insane.
I'm a good coder but not a great one, and I'd love to just find a gig that pays the bills without having to deal with all the masochistic "work is life, I piss in a bottle so I don't have to get up so I can maximize my productivity" bullshit. I just want to write code and make a decent living. I don't even wanna be rich. I just want to not have to stress as much about taking care of my wife and myself.
Maybe we should all start our own consultancy - we don't charge you rock star rates but we get the job done. :-D
Second, you need to get your love for technology back. It is still there, but it manifests as hate. My theory of burnout is that it arises when the amount of effort you put in is disproportionally large compared to perceived payoffs. The brain just does a ROI calculation and refuses to put more effort in. To combat that, you need some easy successes. Try doing some small fun project and bring it to completion (for some definition of completion that makes you excited). This should bring back your confidence and excitement.
Third, you need to think strategically about your career. The truth is, for run-off-the-mill web development returns on experience taper off after a few years, so you are at disadvantage compared to younger folks that haven't lost their enthusiasm yet and are prepared to work long hours for less pay. So to make yourself desirable in the eyes of employers, you have to offer them something those people don't have. One option is to go into management (no need to scoff at it, it is hard, offers plenty of opportunity for growth and is exactly the area where older folks can shine). Another is to specialize and become an "expert in X" - maybe in some subject area or in distributed systems or machine learning. Think about what most suits you.
Good luck.
Here's what I'm aiming to do: learn systems programming on the side, accumulate enough savings to live off of for nearly a year, then go independent and continue learning systems programming "as I go". Build software products on my own and start selling them.
Writing a good and "personalized" cover letter gets me a really decent interview rate I think.
I'd be up to read yours and make suggestions. Just let me know here.
My usual receipt:
- start with a custom paragraph. Why are you a match and why do you like this company.
- 1-2 copy+paste paragraphs about relevant skills (at most a buzzword or two added)
- ending with a curious question to discuss in the possible interview that shows you thinking along and grasped their situation (or at least made the effort). This might be more important for the product roles I aim at though :).
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For preparation (I do this quickly for the letter, a bit more if I get an interview):
- save the job ad (it's useful for interview prep and might get taken down)
- read any blog that hints at upcoming projects you might be hired for
- try to find out their tech stack, highlight if you have relevant experience (https://www.wappalyzer.com/ makes it easy)
With all that: brace yourself for rejections. It's still a numbers game (and you'll get better with every interview you get). If you happen to find something you can actually get behind it also elevates your chances. People feel that.
It took me quite an effort (money, time, psychotherapists) to understand that I am not my job, and more importantly other people being not very happy with what I do is not a reason for me to feel bad about myself. It was very easy for me to start scolding myself after getting not-so-positive or not getting the feedback I expected at work.
Anyway, I think it's a process - my attitude towards my work is never final, I used to think that vespene gas here will get depleted over time, but it's probably not how it works. Some day it's worse, some day it's much better.
Good luck!
I'm hoping to turn this into a second income for "spending money" and then into a real business.
I haven't felt this good in years.
Quick bio: 20+ years as a bartender, around 10 years as a web developer, next career...?? Who knows? As long as life feels like it's worth living. Probably a low bar for many, but that's a decent start for me.
Good luck!!
Find a therapist you like. Not because of any mental heath issues, but because I guarantee you that they will save you more money than they cost you by a long way. The right therapist will be able to ask you the right questions to help you figure out what to do next, and even make helpful suggestions.
This is absolutely not the same as talking to a friend or partner. It is their job to use their experience help and advise you. They are entirely in your corner with you, just like you would expect from any professional.
Part 2
Perhaps a different perspective – I've been freelancing/contracting since I was about 22, and I'm now 37. Full stack, but leaning heavily towards backend given the chance. My latest contracting role is actually as a network engineer (which I gained the knowledge for because I started an ISP during the pandemic).
I've not encountered any issue with nearing my 40s. I think the three key things are: be a good communicator, be comfortable talking about money, and doing your job well. All three are equally important, and you can probably get by with only two.
I've always worked in either small companies, or in very small (or solo) teams within a larger company. I know that I excel in that environment, so that is what I stick to.
But if you really do hate technology, then perhaps it is time to find something else. Again, the therapist will really help so much with this.
Happy to talk more about any of this.
During the pandemic I altered my career slightly, I went into Developer Relations. I still write code, but I also do so many other things. However, if you are suffering burn-out, moving into different roles/careers could further worsen the burn-out.
Personally, I'd take a step back and if you haven't already start introducing a very strict work-life balance. Work 9-5 and no other, take up a hobby that gets you doing something completely unrelated. If you're in a better state mentally, then you would be able to see your work life in a clearer healthier manner.
Now, I am 37 transitioned and while still write A LOT of code ( mostly back-end, high performance APIs, DB stuff ), review a lot of code, but bareley touch front-end work. I grok it, can make the changes, but I am too old for front-end work.
At my role ( 1 level away from C-Level executives) it's not expected to code at all - just power point, diagrams and general corporate lingo, but I can't let myself down that path.
So, my suggestion - start transioning ASAP from just coding - move to managing people who code, then to managing people who manage other people who manage the people that code.
More money, more recognition - less stress in general.
As for web dev, it's a very broad field. You can try backend if you're sick of front end. I'm a full stacker and I'm considering a move to something more low level or algorithmic...we'll see how it goes. Your satisfaction in work also depends a lot on your boss, colleagues and the amount of stress you're experiencing...the actual tools and tasks you work on matter but not that much imo.
"Since its first publication, The Artist's Way has inspired the genius of Elizabeth Gilbert, Tim Ferriss, Reese Witherspoon, Kerry Washington and millions of readers to embark on a creative journey and find a deeper connection to process and purpose. Julia Cameron guides audiences in uncovering problems and pressure points that may be restricting their creative flow and offers techniques to open up opportunities for growth and self-discovery.
A revolutionary programme for personal renewal, The Artist's Way will help get you back on track, rediscover your passions and take the steps you need to change your life."
The book helps you reconnect with parts of yourself you may have forgotten. These could end up being avenues you end up exploring as possible career paths.
First, don't give up and pick up areas in the industry that require people to actually be innovative and not be cogs in the machine. To me those areas are machine learning and blockchain development. I've dabbled in both, and figured I like the latter better. It's got a ton of hype and bullshit (machine learning has that too), but you are nowhere being a fungible developer.
> Nearing my 40s, so my profile is less appealing to employers, this field is very oriented to young people.
That applies only to webpack/react/graphql bullshit jobs. You should have figured out by now not to do those.
Another important advice - get your physical body in order. That should be your number one priority. Give up addictions (alcohol, drugs), get in shape, get strong!
It's not easy, but it gets better. Remember, when you are going through hell, keep going!
> expects you to be a superstar leetcoder, with the wherewithal to go through 6-8 interviews and IQ test.
Ignore these too. If a company is unreasonable, I see no reason why I should follow through with the interviews.
Also make sure you do work adequate to the pay. If company does not pay well, don't do overtime, don't do a great code, just something that works. Basically do bare minimum and no more.
Sadly engineers kind brought it upon themselves. I am at fault too. When I was young I would pull all-nighters at the office all the time to get features done and beating increasingly shortened deadlines. That eventually led me to depression and other issues. Also I didn't feel all that effort in my bank account.
The fact you think 300+ people are applying to the same jobs means the market might be saturated with those skills. Do you think you might have let your own skill set stagnate?
Do I like what I'm doing? (solving problems, making software)
Do I like who I'm working with?
Do I like the company I'm working for?
If you answer yes to the first question, an no to either of the next two questions, time to make a change. If you feel like your work isn't valued, go to work for a small company or a startup where everything you do, every line of code, every time you take out the trash is valued.
> Nearing my 40s, so my profile is less appealing to employers, this field is very oriented to young people.
Not really true. Entry level is oriented to young people. Often, front-end is seen as entry-level (it should not, but it is) because junior devs come knowing the latest-greatest (and not much else). Senior developers tend to get a little prickly about learning the latest javascript libraries and css techniques. At my company, I have a great mid-career front end dev who is making the jump to full stack, and is fantastic at it because he's highly aware of the impact of back-end design decisions on front-end performance and front-end developer experience. Our APIs get better every day because of him.
A couple of weeks back the very distinct name of a former co-worker popped into my head, and I did a search. Found some info.
When I knew him he was an intranet webmaster for a state agency. Remember "webmasters"? Anyway, in the years since, he went over to the Agile side. He's done a huge amount of contract project management work since, for several state agencies, and also for Amazon, Microsoft, and Google. And at least one gig in Australia.
Looks like a success. Completely different than what he was doing way back in the 2003-2005 period. Apparently he just decided to grab it and run with it, regardless of what you, I, or anyone else thinks about "Agile". It's a thing, and he's doing it successfully, and he seems to be in control of his life, so...
I'd say stay away from being a government employee, but as one option, governments always seem to have boatloads of money to hire consultants and contractors. Back about year 2002 I was making maybe $45k and the contractor in the next cubicle was making over $200k, didn't know any more than I did, just different things, and was treated like a god, while I was expected to eat shit and smile, all day, every day.
I quit my last job, as a state government web dev, when I decided that I'd rather die than keep working there. That was July 7, 2005. As things unfolded, I haven't worked since. This was a totally stupid thing to do, but somehow I survived. If I had it all to do over, I would be a whole bunch smarter, but here I am. I made it on savings to 2011, when I was eligible for Social Security at 62, and three years later at 65 I began drawing on my state pension. Now I'm living in Cuenca, Ecuador, where my monthly spending is under $800, around a third of my income. OK so far.
SAP in the mean time did their third attempt at the cloud (BTP/Steampunk) and it seemed like the same old shit I was working on the classic ECC 6.0 buried in more layers of shit but now running in the "cloud".
Covid then came along and I got laid off which provided me with a financial cushion of a year to realize SAP is not what I wanted to do anymore , interviews to rebalance a binary tree - really ????.
Learned something new/went back to my old roots as a C developer.
Now doing Python with Pandas - less pay - less hours but far far happier.
Good luck
Other than that, I'm afraid I'm not of much help as I'm in a kind-of similar situation myself. Might be worth looking at what else is out there, not just related to dev but literally anything, even if it does mean less pay.
[1] They use niche and difficult technology (Scala HP Haskel-style approach) and reject people who are not at least already ok at it.
Training is (if your understand the content) not so stressful as working in consulting or developing, and you meet a lot of interesting people.
It comes with its own burden, of course, but it may work as a way to find time to better understand what you want to do in the future.
Also, the salary is pretty good.
I believe the successful hackers went on to start their own consultancy firms. Same job, totally different culture and treatment. Threshold is a major skill upgrade in self-marketing though.
It may make sense to take a break from work, but it could also be destabilizing, and create the fear of ending up broke. So try to find a way to reduce stress and things that cause you anxiety, whatever it may be. A therapist can help with that too.
Look into therapy/counciling of some sort. No matter what what the actual problem is, having space to talk and vent about it is important. Judging by your post you've got a lot of thoughts and feelings locked up right now, having a professional to work through it with would be really helpful.
None of that is to say it's "your fault" or "your problem", but it might help you to figure out your next move. That may be getting out of the industry and into something else, or it might be finding a new job where the issues aren't as pronounced.
I have similar thoughts, but when I think about life and jobs and reality, logically my gut feelings do not make sense. Plenty of people around who seem okay but do not express any significant “depth”. It shouldn’t be that hard, so what is my true concern and what are the goals?
Take a break, rest and review these problems with a clear mind. Consulting a professional helps for mind and career.
Good luck.
If you are on the applying side rather than on the job offering side, how can you know these numbers?
If this is your perspective - switch industry and start taking orders at your local deli? You aren’t likely to have what it takes to stay in a rapidly changing industry that is trying to always evolve by its very definition.
> Anyone managed to move from front-end to another role
Changing roles isn't necessarily the answer. It could be, depending on how different the new role is; but for example going from frontend to backend dev is just a matter of fine details really (so it likely won't make you happier).
I hit the point you're at repeatedly over the last decade. And worse, I have fond memories of the glory days of the 90s when you could fax (haha) your resume to a recruiter, and within a week you had a job if you wished. Interviews were typically 1-2 hours in person, where you would talk to 1-3 people at the client site. Within a day or two, you had an initial offer or a rejection. I actually don't remember getting any rejections back then. Those glory days took a nosedive at the unfortunate intersection of the dotcom bust and the surge of offshore sourcing (and recruiting "firms" who replaced all their reasonably skilled recruiters with mindless drones who wouldn't even read your resume before calling you about a job).
But I digress...
At this moment I'm jobless and SO MUCH HAPPIER. I even have the enthusiasm and energy to start building some of my own projects. I don't have much savings, but I have enough to get me through a few months. Maybe one of the things I'm working on has the potential to generate some income, but that's not my focus. Almost my entire career has been focused on financial benefits (within reason... I still easily reject cube farm jobs in big banks), so now I'm trying an alternate approach. After all, if you're in poor mental and physical health while having a job and fat paycheck, it's not really living.
I would seek help before making any career moves under this cloud.
I'm an average software engineer with nothing impressive on the resume. Persistence pays off.
This has always been the case. In the 1980s, when I was in my 20s, this was the deal, and very well known to all of us in university. Nothing new. One was too old after 35-years-old, UNLESS you were some amazingly great programmer, of course. Obviously. I remember having many conversations about this topic. And this was the case way back then, when the whole industry was young.
That being said, there's always room for older programmers. Maybe it is not quite as easy, but there's a lot of room. Maybe you won't get the Google, Facebook type of jobs, but the government sewer district, or an auto parts store with 20 stores would hire you. So it might not be the glamor of a high-end company.
I'm a lot older than you but I can move from company to company pretty easily, because I guess I have more experience - not on the technical side, but on the political savvy side. Office politics. Knowing how to find the back doors.
However, this is not about that. You hate the tech field, so none of that matters.
I personally have gone from industry to industry, different types of jobs. I have a huge and massive source of skill sets.
I know that many say that being a "jack-of-all-trades, master of none" is bad but I've never felt that way. Sure, I won't make the huge bucks by being a neurosurgeon making $2 million per year, but then again, even if I did try to do that, I still would never be able to be a neurosurgeon (or leetcoder) anyways. So the point is moot. And I'm not really a jack-of-all-trades, more like a "near master of a shitload of trades." That's how I see it, anyways. And, I LIKE being a "jack/near-master-of-all-trades" so why does it matter if I am not a superstar master? I don't want to do that.
So what I am saying is that it is possible to move from one industry, from one trade, to another.
I've done programming, sales, insurance, ran a sports school, worked as a high-level bookkeeper/financial person, ran multiple companies of my own, worked in retail (I really like it and dealing with the public, unlike most people). I've also worked in a number of other specialized niche fields that I don't want to say as it might doxx me. Over the last year I learned a boatload about SEO/SEM/Social media/digital marketing. I did this for others, but now I'm going to start creating websites of my own and use that knowledge to create my own websites.
I do what I want to do. Sometimes it takes me 3 or 6 months to figure out my next move when it is time to move on.
I am just showing you that it is more than possible. I've done it tons of times. And what one man, or woman, can do, so can another.
But the question is, what do you want to do?
As far as your existing work history, of course you have to include it. But you always want to skew your resume to the job you are applying to, as much as possible.
So if you are going to do technical writing as your next thing, you then change your resume to say how you wrote reports, or manuals, or instructions and that was the favorite part of what you are doing as a front end web designer, and other things like that. If you decide to, oh, work in a hotel industry in the administrative department, maybe you created a website for a hotel and were intrigued by it and want to work in that industry now. Just make it link up, that's easy to do. It's totall random association.
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If you can go to any kind of meetings in person, if you can find any, that is the best case. You never know who you will meet. I went to a computer security even earlier this year and met the CIO of a Fortune 100 company and spent 3 hours talking with him. He had 10,000 technical people working for him, and here I was talking to him. He offered me a job, but I didn't want one.
I've been to so many in-person meetings and if you put yourself out there and talk to people, you will find commonalities. So maybe you decide to work in commercial real estate and want to get into landscaping. So you just start attending commercial real estate assocation meetings and boom, you have a job without having to jump through hoops by applying through their website if you impress them. Maybe still apply through a website but it is a formality.
>Appreciate any guidance, thanks.
What do you want to do? Can't help you until you know that.