HACKER Q&A
📣 bartminton

Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?


My wife (hotel management), our 6 month old son and myself (CS, software, hardware + business consulting) need to leave Berlin and Germany. Everything in Germany and especially Berlin eroded to a point, where we don’t want to stand it no more - meaningless to get into the details but quality of life, politics, social life, social net and tax situation just reached their 30 year low.

Our main goal is quality of life for all of us, so it should be a country w/o cold winters, possibly an island close to the equator. I’d appreciate, if I found a tech position, that allows us to buy / rent a quality house (which is close to impossible in Berlin even making 200k/year [due to neck breaking tax and cost of living]).

Getting along with English is a must. The same goes for the possibility of getting work visa. I also consider working remote for a EU / US company and just move to a nice place, but I’d love to hear your personal story, recommendations or ideas.


  👤 Matthias247 Accepted Answer ✓
Having moved from germany to canada (Vancouver BC) in 2017, I can tell you that "quality of life" is highly subjective, and a lot of things in germany work far better than it seems - but you will only notice it if you have anything to compare against.

E.g. [online] shopping and stock availability is so much better in germany, and you only notice what a privilege it is to get everything you need in 1 day once it's taken away from you. Groceries are super cheap in germany compared to canada. Cellphone and ISP service and pricing is often looked down upon in germany, but still also better than lots of other places. [Free] eduction is also good.

Housing in Berlin in 200k should be as comfortable as in Vancouver on 400k and new building construction quality is good. But sure - there will be tons of other places on this planet where housing is cheaper.

Then there's considerations about healthcare (where germany is probably neither at the top end nor the bottom end of the spectrum).

And of course also about long term job perspectives. While you might be able to find a remote job now, it could be much harder to maintain it or look for future opportunities in some locations than in others. Being in a country with a big tech industry or at least in the same timezone will help retaining opportunities.


👤 jacquesm
As a multiple-times-emigrant I can tell you this one thing: no matter where you go, it will be plusses and minuses compared to where you are originally from. Some things will be better, others will be worse. Sometimes much better and sometimes much worse. And there is no way to know this up front you just need to go there and live there for a while before your own personal scorebook can be updated, other people will have an entirely different view on these things depending on their own background, stage of life they are in, personality and so on.

Whatever you will end up finding: it will make you a more balanced person and better able to appreciate the good and the bad of where ever you are in a much more objective way than before.


👤 alldayeveryday
This is a question I've often asked myself - albeit from in the US rather than from Germany. While I cannot answer your specific question, I can at least tell you where I landed after asking myself the same question.

> quality of life, politics, social life, social net and tax situation just reached their 30 year low.

I first recognized that this trend was not restricted only to where I live. And so you recognize that this is not about fleeing your location specifically, and is moreso about fleeing a set of conditions that exist in many places and looking for a location that is not characterized by these conditions. The difference I think is important.

Second, I recognized that these conditions are temporal - that is to say that they were not always the case and need not necessarily always be the case in the future. Furthermore, a location without these conditions today is not guaranteed to be free of these conditions in the future. And so any change of location could very well be just temporary - I might need to move again in some X num of years.

Third, when you look at for example Californians fleeing the state and moving to places like Austin, TX - bringing along with them ideologies that are anathema to that of the legacy population, you recognize that it is not just geography that defines the conditions of where one lives, but to a greater degree the people who are living there.

Putting this all together, I arrived at the conclusion that fleeing could at best be a temporary solution and that I would be better served by building relationships in my local community which would produce a higher quality of life for my family. The way you push back on the trend is to re-establish your roots with your people, your nation, and its history. Fleeing will only result in greater isolation and disconnectedness from those around you.


👤 dgellow
> that allows us to buy / rent a quality house (which is close to impossible in Berlin even making 200k/year [due to neck breaking tax and cost of living])

Just, how? If you have 200k/year, taxes and Berlin's low cost of living should have almost no impact on you. That's like more than than 4 times the median German salary, in one of the cheapest city of the country (rent is of course expensive, but that's mostly depending on the neighborhood). I spent 3 years in Berlin and now live in Hamburg, I cannot imagine that you have problem finding a decent place and living a very comfortable life there given your income.

Anyway, if you do not like Berlin, there is a lot of other places in Germany with different politics, taxes, and social life.


👤 atmosx
Take a look at Chania, Crete Greece. You can setup a corporation in Greece and work as a contractor for local and foreign companies. That will get you 22% tax. Assuming you make more than 80k / year (after taxes) you'll be on the high-end. Housing is expensive for Greek standards but I'm pretty sure that you will be able to afford it. It is an island but pretty big. Has hospitals, universities, etc. Chania is a small town but 6 months a year is flooded with tourists so appears to be much larger and always vibrant. The sea and scenery in Crete is outstanding. Especially the canyons.

Cons: Infrastructure in Greece is poor. Internet services are considerably more expensive and public transport is not good compared to central Europe. Streets are poorly maintained as well.

Pros: The food is amazing, best you've had. Any kind of crops will grow there and will be tasty. You'll be living next to the sea, you'll be the most "popular" member of your extended family... Everybody will want to "pay a visit" as often as possible. People are pretty friendly, crazy at the same time but really open. The gov is actively trying to destroy the healthcare system but it is still average.


👤 numlock86
Sounds like you should/want just move out of Berlin, not necessarily Germany. Sure, the tax situation and climate is basically the same everywhere, but if you want quality of live I'd recommend somewhere near or between Oldenburg and Emden in Lower Saxony. Once you settled in basically everything east of Bremen and south of Osnabrück will feel like a different country. I basically had the same situation for decades and have been everywhere from north to south and west to east, from small towns to big cities. There's exceptions everywhere of course.

👤 isubasinghe
Come down to Australia. The tech scene is just CRUD apps but quality of life is pretty amazing. Comparable to Switzerland for median income people imo, Switzerland is still better if you are poor but don't think that applies here, since you alone on a Software Eng would put your family to above average income.

Relatively low tax (caps off at 30% for most people if/when the new tax legislation goes through, perhaps not for a Software Engineer though).

Winter in Melbourne hits 0 at the coldest, mostly above 4 degrees though. Summer can get quite hot, high 30s and the occasional 40.

But yeah, I am in Switzerland atm and I find the quality of life similar, really made me appreciate home (Australia) more as well because I thought this was the norm before coming to Europe.

Don't get me wrong we still have selfish self serving politicians but quality of life for most Australian's is high.

Cost of living will probably be higher than Berlin though, Melbourne/Sydney is comparable to Zürich in expense as well, but taxes will likely be lower.


👤 simonebrunozzi
Sorry to hear that you need to leave your country. It's never easy. I left Italy in 2008, in search for opportunities (AWS), then left the US in 2020, back to Italy.

What made you leave Berlin, if you don't mind sharing a bit more?

Finding the right place is always a compromise. E.g. :

1) quality of schools for your son (eventually; he's still super young)

2) VISA, how easy it is to get a permanent resident, and/or citizenship

3) Island close to the equator: the weather is usually not that great (source: lived in Singapore, an island close to the equator, for 2.5 years). But picking the right "type" of place is important, and I suggest you take a 1-month long vacation in 2-3 places, if you can afford it, to "test" it and see if you like it.

Still on this point, I think that most "north Europeans" enjoy the mediterranean area (Portugal, Spain, Italy, or even Greece). Have you tried it out?


👤 akmarinov
Come to Bulgaria - in the south there are mild winters, in the summer - there's a great beachside.

You get some of the fastest internet in Europe for cheap, taxes stand at 10% flat rate, 20% VAT.

Houses in the vicinity of major cities are dirt cheap, compared to your standards (you can probably start off renting for something like 400-500 euro/month).

There're a lot of IT companies, but of course you can't expect the same salaries that you're accustomed to, though if you can land a Germany job that'll let you remote from here - it's a great deal.

Germany is a 1 hour flight away, usually for fairly cheap.


👤 thyselius
I'd look into Bali.

The new five year digital nomad visa means you pay no income tax.

A beautiful villa is $300-600 per month.

You could be working from a beach club with pool, gym, healthy restaurant and tennis court, like Titi Batu https://goo.gl/maps/KGfy6hqscZ2XKrzQ8

Price is very low, a 30 min taxi ride is $1.50, a main dish at a fancy restaurant is $5-7.

The food is the best I've ever had, weather is wonderful, there's surfing and the people are super friendly, funny and happy.

(I'm not sure about health care and education.)

My second choice would probably be Lisbon.


👤 joeman1000
Australia. My best advice is to go somewhere where your life is worth lots of money. I lived in Ukraine for 2 years and toured around EU for part of that time. My life in Ukraine was worth the price of bribing a cop. Someone is caught after running me over? In the cynical case they’re free for $100. In Australia if someone hits me and is caught, they’re fucked. This is especially important for your wife and son. Put them before yourself in your decision, as I’m sure you already do.

👤 Mikeb85
> Our main goal is quality of life for all of us, so it should be a country w/o cold winters, possibly an island close to the equator.

Australia, Barbados, Bahamas, Cyprus.

Honestly though, you'll be hard pressed to find anywhere as livable as Germany.

The US and Canada are less safe with more violence. Both have worse healthcare and education. The US is attractive income-wise but visas tough to get. Canada is extremely unaffordable. Most EU countries offer similar livability but you might not be able to get by on just English or German. It's a nearly impossible criteria considering how rich, safe and affordable Germany is...


👤 matus_congrady
I would definitely suggest Prague, Czech Republic.

The city is beautiful. Climate is great. Low taxation (especially if you're self-employed). Cost of living is way better than in Germany. Quality of food, healthcare and public services is also very good.

Also, if you don't like the leftist policies, you'll love Czech Republic.


👤 oumua_don17
Cambridge, UK

- A solid tech hub so you should have enough opportunities

- Good options for your wife as well to work

- You can also work in London (only 50 minutes by train to King's Cross); I do that

- High quality education for kids

While we don't have kids but from friends who do have, they find Cambridge to be great place to work, live and raise a family. And while you won't get warm winters, they should still be manageable if you look at the other positives.


👤 sneusse
Well, if you don't mind (or like) living in a small village, Black Forest area. Housing is very affordable for good standard houses (just bought 170sqm house for 450k with renewable heating, decent energy efficiency). Nature here is awesome, QoL for us just perfect, having farms, forests, small lakes nearby. Kindergarden, Elementary School, Farmer-Stores in walking distance. Expect some cold winters every few years though :)

By choosing your village carefully you'll also get decent public transport to bigger cities (1h by train every hour to Stuttgart for us, 2h to Lake Constance).

For example we were considering this one: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/133826271 But it was just too big for us. Add another 50-80k for upgrading the heating to a renewable one, some roof insulation and you're at 480k for 220sqm.

I'd expect that you'd find similar objects in like 1-2h around Berlin.

No idea how you cannot find a place in germany with 200k/y. I make about half of that and that's me providing a single income for our family and still saving up some money for the future. I'm not self-employed but with 200k income you should still have more left at the end of the month than we do, and we're doing fine (but we also don't need fancy cars or have fancy expensive hobbies)


👤 janekg
> that allows us to buy / rent a quality house (which is close to impossible in Berlin even making 200k/year [due to neck breaking tax and cost of living]).

This is more likely to be due to the tight situation on the housing market with several monopolists than to excessively high taxes.


👤 lormayna
What about Israel? The tech scene is amazing, the weather is great and the taxes are lower than in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Israel). Unless if you don't have Jewish roots, it can be hard to get a VISA.

For quality of life, I would like to suggest Italy, but the salary are terrible low and the taxes are high. Moreover, the probable new government, will make immigration way more complex.


👤 clintonwoo
I'm not the biggest expert in this area but sounds like Portugal is popular with this demographic. It might be able to meet a lot of your requirements.

Outside of that then the world is your oyster. The world is a big beautiful place and if you work in tech you're only limited by your own imagination.


👤 keiferski
I know you said you’re looking for a warmer climate, but have you been to Leipzig? It’s a great little city with a ton of history. It has some of the feel of Berlin but is infinitely cheaper and less busy. Just something to consider.

Otherwise I would look into the Balkan coast. Croatia, Montenegro, etc. You won’t be working locally but the quality of life will be great on a remote salary and the culture shock should be fairly minimal for a German.


👤 RomanPushkin
Currently living in the US (citizen), originally from the Soviet Block, but I used to live in Spain (1 year), South-east Asia (4 years), and Germany (1 year) as well. Have been to other countries as well (Mexico, Dom.Republic, etc.).

From my perspective, Germany is one of the best choices. There are few things that should be in the country you live:

* Laws, police should work (well, to some degree).

* Healthcare should be decent.

* Shouldn't be too cold.

Most of the island/equator countries don't have this option. Once you face a legal issue, you will want to run a country with a law system that, for example, works the different way to locals vs immigrants (like Mexico).

I was thinking about moving from the US to Germany/Netherlands multiple times in the last few years.


👤 2143
1. Every country on Earth has its own problems.

2. If you move outside of Europe, the culture is going to be vastly different that what you're used to in Germany.

While the problems you faced in Germany may get solved, you will run into new problems.

Also, aren't Germans supposed to be well organized, disciplined, punctual etc? Most countries near the equator — despite being wonderful in their own unique ways — aren't exactly known for these traits, so you might end up being frustrated.

3. Did you consider moving to other places within Europe, such as Switzerland, Netherlands, or northern countries like Sweden, Norway? People living in these places seem to be mostly happy.

4. Malaysia seems to fit your criteria. I have lived there for a while. Kuala Lumpur (KL) is a pleasant place that's cheaper than Singapore. People tend to be polite. You can get by with English in KL.

However, I'm not entirely sure about the software developer scene over there though.

5. > but quality of life, politics, social life, social net and tax situation just reached their 30 year low.

I'm sceptical about these things being better outside Europe.

If you do move, I predict you'll eventually have a renewed appreciation for your homeland :)


👤 enviclash
I am also leaving Germany. Today I chatted with a Berliner who pointed out how loud and unsafe Berlin has become. Months ago I talked with a lady with kids that moved out cos too much drugs in parks. Not surprised to read your story! I am going to the land of tolerance and innovation: the Netherlands!

👤 thebeastie
Interesting thread, many insights on a topic where wisdom is hard won.

That said, I read OPs complaints about polarization and taxes, and I wonder if Latin America might address some of these issues?

(Slightly tongue in cheek)

Your status as a foreigner will make people more forgiving of your ignorance of local political issues, and also interested when you make comparisons to foreign perspectives (especially coming from Europe, which they consider the model of civilization).

Tax evasion is a way of life here, you could declare as little or as much as you like of your foreign income, which combined with the lower cost of living, would mean you could put away a sizable portion of your monthly income.

The quality of life may surprise you in some aspects, provided you are willing to think strategically about your lifestyle, ie where you will work / shop, play and with whom. The food can also be excellent, with a greater abundance of fresh produce, which in Europe often tends to be optimized to withstand prolonged shipping and storage, as well as limited volume/higher price.

And when you eventually decide you have had enough, because the conditions can be trying (constant horror stories about violent home invasions, rife inflation, far fewer accessible /and/ safe getaway destinations, and not being able to consistently get a decent flat white) you can return and declare your savings as foreign income tax free.


👤 yrgulation
The UK but outside London. Beats germany in openness and pretty much all other eu countries in tech and pay. Housing is an issue in london but england rural and the other countries in the uk are quite within reach. The tech scene is an absolute leader in europe, startup funding is quite easy to get and career options are plenty. The government is a joke but if you ignore those goons youll be fine.

👤 gedy
> possibly an island close to the equator

Assuming you have German genetics, climate and sun living near equator might be very rough on you if you're not used to it. Spain or California might be at far as you want to go.


👤 b20000
what are your top 3 issues with berlin? germany and berlin always seemed to offer great quality of life. i’m from europe too. how can you not afford a house in germany with a 200k/year salary? for less than 500k you should be able to find something nice? even if you pay 50% tax. and you have 2 incomes.

in the US real estate on the east and west coast is insanely expensive and 1.5MM plus for a very basic house. nothing fancy and lower quality than in europe.

so the cheaper real estate is in the midwest where there is little infrastructure and very little access to the cultural systems like exist in europe.

i am on the west coast and love it here. but it has been extremely stressful and i will probably not be able to afford a house until i win the lottery or the startup game or maybe a very high up FAANG position. europe is just a different pace and stress level.

i will add to this that professional discrimination of women in europe is much less than in the US IMHO. important if your wife is working.


👤 higeorge13
Malta might be an option due to climate, english and lots of foreigners living there, but i have no idea about taxes. Cyprus also.

👤 jaclaz
You are more or less describing the Canary Islands.

You can live there talking English only, and there will be probably opportunities of work for your wife (that should however learn to speak at least functional Spanish).

Remote working for you, however, I don't think there is much occupation related to your field.


👤 4dregress
I just want to point out that it's probably not the best choice to move anywhere near the equator.

👤 silisili
Countries that often seem idyllic on paper often have some rather bad downsides - definitely do your research without blinders on. I've done small stints(long vacations, not work) in a couple island places that seem nice, but healthcare is terrible, white people perhaps are treated differently, etc etc. And even in places with better-ish healthcare, a lot of times there's some resentment from people like us driving up their house prices and such.

Are you considering the US? There's a few states that would meet your criteria of weather. You'd really want to talk to some people privately regarding what you want and politics - California and Florida could not be further apart WRT the people, beliefs, and governments.


👤 MattGaiser
> meaningless to get into the details

The problem is that your stances on these impact recommendations. Are you taxed too high and think the social safety net costs too much?

Or do you need the social safety net and are complaining about rich people not paying?


👤 giantg2
"politics, social life, social net"

I think it will be hard to recommend depending on your exact positions on these.

I think it will be difficult to recommend a place with low taxes and robust safety net. Generally the taxes are what Pay for a safety net.

On that note, the US could be an option (southern states) for you since the taxes tend to be lower than other developed nations. The safety net is fairly robust, but only applicable in many cases if you're destitute. The caveat is that politics suck here, but they suck basically everywhere.


👤 csomar
I'm sorry you are in a shitty situation, but you have to understand that most taxes are being paid by people like you (middle-class job with wife/kid and mortgage, can't risk it and move or avoid taxes). You are correct about the 71% tax pressure (and it might be even higher). You are also correct about the weather (north Europe's weather is shit, depressing and lacks vitamin D).

But all of this doesn't matter. Remember, you are a man with a wife and a kid; and you are kind of limited because of that. (governments know that too, and that's why you are paying most of the taxes of society).

My opinion: Your problem is hardly moving to a different place. Any place is going to treat you the same because of your situation (exceptions happening). What you need to do, is figure your way out of the system and then branch remotely into a different system. You can then live in a country where you do not generate your stream of income; and not be too worried about their rules.

Say the following: You can land a remote job with $200k/year salary. Your wife is not quite interested in pursuing her career (ie: okay with any reasonable job). The UAE could be a place for you (the weather is hot though). You could afford a villa, vacations, good healthcare, private education for your kid, save money, and trade without consequences.

Of course the UAE could be not the place for you. But there are many other places to pick from, especially with a German passport.

Also: If you are leaving because of taxes, do not settle for any place that has a tax higher than 0%.


👤 rayiner
Move to Atlanta, Georgia, or Florida, or the Georgia coast if you can swing mostly remote work. I just met a German in St. Simons, a resort area on the Georgia coast a few hours from Atlanta. He was thrilled with the neighborhood (for his young kid), schools, etc. The Atlanta economy is booming, real estate is still affordable, and if you can swing mostly remote work working on the coast and hopping to the office in Atlanta a few times a month would be very doable.

👤 muzani
Malaysia. Close to equator with lots of great islands with fast internet. No winters. Lots of tech jobs, especially remote. Easy tech and retirement visas (but very difficult citizenships). Income tax capped at 30%. Really nice houses available at about USD250k. Free/cheap medical costs. English is everywhere, even the constitution is written in it.

If you want islands with good internet, Redang has a really nice view and fresh fish, but no other activity than snorkeling and BBQs. Langkawi is not as beautiful and more developed, beach is a little polluted, but it's a major tourism port with lots of cheap chocolate and alcohol.

Indonesia, Thailand, and Singapore are also great alternatives. Indonesia and Thailand has nicer islands and cheaper lifestyle, a little less English language and lower stability.

Singapore has a higher quality of life overall, and is a tech hub of SEA. Probably doesn't meet the cheap housing requirement.


👤 purplepatrick
Not sure I can add much to the answers below but will try.

You are not going to be able to increase your quality of life above that of Germany by moving closer to the equator, at least not by most general quality of life metrics.

However, it sounds like you are specifically looking for the combination of sun + lower cost. In that regard I’d look at the following. Keep in mind you will likely end up moving back to Germany eventually from most of these, be it because you require health or elder care or certain educational opportunities for your kids if you have any.

Panama, Nicaragua, Ecuador, Costa Rica, Malta, Malaysia, Bali, Spain & Baleares, Portugal.

If you’re willing to compromise on the “sun factor”, I would take a closer look at the following:

Austria, Slovenia, Estonia, Czech Republic, South Korea, Taiwan.

It sounds to me that you also want a country where you get by in English and/or German easily. That should narrow down the first list above quite a bit.


👤 0x6d72
Interesting. I'm currently in the process of moving back to Germany from Australia. I spent the last 8 years in Sydney and I'm kind of disillusioned about immigrating to another country. You basically just change one set of problems with another set of problems, it's a tradeoff.

One thing to consider when immigrating to another country is that you won't have a social net immediately since you (presumably) don't have family/friends here yet. For Australia you're also required to have private health insurance when you're on a temporary work visa, which you most likely will be if you decide to come here. As a german you're not eligible for medicare but you can get it once you have permanent residency.

To get a work visa in Australia you need to find a sponsor or have a profession that is promoted by the government (e.g. medical doctors). For a sponsor that basically means you need a job with a company before you even get here. I came here on a working holiday visa and found work that way (working holiday visas are limited to people below the age of 30 without dependants).

Don't get me wrong Australia has a lot going for it, beautiful country, nice weather (winter is like ~15 degrees celsius), nice and friendly people, paperwork is super easy compared to Germany, good job opportunities (as a software developer).

However!

Australia is big and far away from everything (people always underestimate this), literally every holiday trip requires a flight to get anywhere. Even within Australia. Flying to Europe requires minimum ~2 days of travel time one way!

Housing is ridiculously expensive, I was on AU$ 130K annually and was not able to afford a house, the required deposit is basically impossible to obtain in a reasonable amount of time. And since it is so big you're not living in a rural area and commute to a larger city (unless you like driving 100+ km one way). What makes matters worse is that most companies seem reluctant to let people work from home 100% of the time, it seems to have settled on something like 50% home and 50% office. Renting right now is brutal, prices have gone up and there is competition like crazy (10km circle around Sydney CBD). Also be prepared to strip naked (metaphorically) to get a rental place, real estate agents want to know everything and need minimum 3 friend references and 2 work references (at least they were asking for that last time roughly a year ago).

Lately food prices have gone up quite a bit, my normal daily groceries bill was around AU$ 15 and is now around AU$ 25.


👤 freemint
Both the UK and especially the US are going through a rough spot. I would look into Ireland (not so warm climate) or English speaking Asia (maybe insane property prices in tier 1 cities).

👤 pestatije
> 30 year low

You actually want to retire in Germany AND THEN move wherever. You are too invested in a single country and its benefits system to give it away just a few years before they are due


👤 theriddlr
Malaysia or Singapore (island on the equator).

Spain Balearics or Canary Islands.


👤 sottol
Nothing like moving abroad for a while to appreciate good old Germany. I centered my life abroad and I'm not likely to move back but I'm getting nostalgic ;)

This is a bit rant-y, and some of this may be US-centric but I think it will apply to equatorial countries as well. I think you should totally move abroad - if you stay for only 1-2 years you'll not want even to move back, after 5-10 years you start to appreciate Germany, wait 10-20 and you'll miss it.

All that is to say, you should definitely try to move abroad and see if you can build a life there. At the very least it will absolutely enrich your life with all these new experiences and recast how you see your own country/society. And if you like it and want to permanently settle, even better! Also, with risk there's usually opportunity, I would think equatorial islands may have demand for your wife's skills e.g.

So now to the ranting... the high taxes imo (at least partially) allow for:

- reasonable equality and social equity through redistribution,

- low crime and violence (also social cohesion),

- excellent "broad" education and opportunities (i.e. not ivy league-level education but very good, affordable and low competition for many),

- generally more "care-free" lifestyle (social safety net, imo sensible regulations, medical system, education system are all less stress-inducing)

Conversely:

- Taxes: you pay lower taxes, but then you spend a lot of money on health-care and education. Sure you can cut corners (esp. on health-care when you're young) but then you start worrying about going to this or that doctor or getting this procedure or not.

- Education: get ready to pay 20% extra for houses in "good school districts" or spend a good chunk of salary on private schools (which is probably what you're looking at outside the US). The best-of-the-best education is going to be quite a bit better than the average in Germany, but most of German education is "good" and free. And then private school means your kids grow up around mostly "rich kids", personally not my ideal situation. Also, families in the Bay Area are interviewing with their 4-5 year old kids for the "best" kindergardens/pre-schools, I see very high pressure early on. Everything is so competitive, but especially "top-tier" education.

- Equality/Equity: Living life at the top is much nicer than in Germany. But the downside is that there's going to be parts of town that you probably don't want to walk to/through at night - depending on your chosen region you may not want to walk, period, or take public transit (if there even is public transit). Fortunately, your really nice house will probably be in a gated community so you automatically avoid half the population (/s).

- High salaries: generally you work a lot more, there's a reason so many people dream of retiring to an island. Fewer vacation days or no structured vacation at all. Less time with kids. Though that wouldn't apply when working for a EU company probably. Great for a while if yo plan to move somewhere lower-cost-of-living eventually and can save up, but for most people the high-paying jobs are in high-COL areas so quality of life isn't even strictly better (yes, remote - but I don't think it's more 5% even here on HN). Sure you now drive a Tesla, but you're still not saving a lot and spending all that money on your rent/house, kids, groceries, and "entertainment" - just on a "higher" level.

- Regulation: depending on your location get ready to never drink tap water because the water supply is under/un-regulated, and e.g. get ready to do your own research on food additives, vitamins+supplements and so on because they're largely unregulated and a free-for-all. There will be no more great renters-protections, consumer-protections. Again, this is fine for a couple years but eventually starts to grind you down.

- Groceries/food: You might miss some of the stuff you grew up with, not at first but eventually. Also, again cost - German groceries are ridiculously cheap. $5 mozarealla ball? $5 bar of chocolate? $10 for paper towels/toilet paper? Also, a lot of stuff is just "different" and not what you're used to. Every time I go back, I go to Aldi/LIDL and smile when I've bought my weekly groceries and it's less than $200-300. Yes, we spend about $600-1000 on groceries alone a month for a larger fam ($600 if you go do Trader Joe's and don't splurge, $1000 if you order Whole Foods and have it delivered)

- Housing: You will probably get a lot more "size" for you money, but quality may not be what you're used to from Germany. I've seen huge $2M homes with only single-pane windows ($200-300 on heating every month in the colder months) and foundations that shift, luxury $1.7M condos in SF that have water roof/siding leaks within 10 years of being built and so on.


👤 rurban
I would recommend moving to Germany elsewhere. Berlin is certainly the worst place in Germany, Dresden or Leipzig are much cheaper, and have extremely nice quality of life attributes.

w/o cold winters/island: On an island you are on an island. Lots of germans moved to the Baleares, Canares, Portugal, Spain, or some richer Caribbean island, such as Kitts and Nevis or Bahamas. But generally they prefer New Zealand over that.


👤 shswkna
Namibia is worth a consideration, especially if you add the option of remote work.

Quality of life and safety is relatively high. Due to the low population density many issues that other countries have do no escalate in the same way. The country has a high level of development and is peaceful/stable.

The only challenge is getting a residence permit but if you understand the goals of Home affairs, it is possible. Ask if you want to know more.


👤 iExploder
the trick to living in Europe as a software engineer is to work remotely and live in small town / village outside of big cities with overpriced properties and people of questionable morals and goals.

special achievement for tough lads / lassies is to move to dodgy eastern countries like czech republic, croatia, romania to save on tax. forget about doing the grown up stuff in english there and when your child gets sick or needs education you need to fly right back to daddy germany.

portugal and ireland also have tax incentives but I dont think the quality of life, services or health care are comparable to germany.

all in all since brexit, interesting and realistic solution seems to be switzerland, but it has its own quirks.

in my opinion you would do better to stay in Germany but move to a more sensible location than Berlin. Get a piece of land where still possible. Germany is a safe bet and will be last one to crumble of the EU states, on paper...


👤 mr90210
Unfortunately in Europe there aren’t many options if seek reasonable taxation.

The challenge with Islands near the equator are the natural disasters.

Have you considered Asia, or even the south of Europe? Portugal maybe?

I have a friend who moved from The Netherlands to very small town in France. He was mostly seeking quality of life for him and his family.


👤 mellosouls
I've never lived there myself (just visited) and I'm not sure to what extent they would meet your politics/tax criteria, but Australia seems to have some happy ex-pats there, and New Zealand.

I've personally wondered about Melbourne or somewhere for myself at times...


👤 zerr
Georgia, the country in Europe but outside EU. It is actually a tax haven.

👤 rootos
Fiji and Mauritius sound great for you, as do Trinidad and Tobago

French Polynesia (English probs though)

Dominican Republic is easiest for Visa

British dependencies/territories in the Caribbean?

You could get an answer by doing some basic research...


👤 ClayShentrup
God I so relate to you and I just hope it all works out.

👤 seekingcharlie
Move to Cyprus and work remotely.

English-speaking, Mediterranean weather, no tax on dividends, and a pretty good expat/international scene.


👤 Moldoteck
With clime, I think Azores are a good spot, and since they are part of Portugal, you'll still remain in eu

👤 dtx1
Just move out of that shithole berlin and than reevaluate. Join SAP and move to waldorf for example.

👤 dswilkerson
Don't forget about tropical diseases when you are closer to the equator than the southern U.S.

👤 moltar
Portugal. DM if you want to discuss.

👤 muldaine
This post sounds like it’s satirizing miserable privileged tech workers. You get child care for free in Germany. Tax is high but Berlin is still the cheapest big western city there is. It’s also beautiful and diverse. I earn less than you and get by fine, also know many couples the same.

Yeah it’s changed over 30 years - name a place that didn’t.


👤 unethical_ban
And there I am in Texas wishing I could move to Munich for a while.

👤 Donckele
Come on over to Greece and take a break.

👤 lemper
Singapore is the answer.

👤 peter_d_sherman
For ideas, you might want to try Nomad Capitalist's (Andrew Henderson's) YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/c/nomadcapitalist/videos


👤 aprdm
Canada

👤 throwaway8344
I am thinking about leaving as well, as I've come to the same conclusions. If anyone is interested here are some of my reasons and impressions of Berlin.

Berlin is lost, the decline of the rest has begun. The problems are systemic. The social fabric is beginning to crumble.

Organized crime, especially many criminal clans from the islamic\arab-world ("Clankriminalität"), have been a plague since the 80s. It seems they spread and get more brazen. Law enforcement and the judicial system is a joke in that space. Many known violent repeat offenders are walking free after a short time, if caught. They have also started to subvert public offices by bribes and other methods, such as the immigration office, police, job centres. To summarize a quote from an Austrian police journal related to the Austrian Federal Ministry of Internal Affairs [1]: Clankriminalität has long since become an everyday phenomenon in Germany. One can't expect the elimination of Clankriminalität through the measures and strategies deployed, the goal should rather be to curb the dangers and reduce the especially negative manifestations. As an aside, the Mafia has also been growing here (in Germany) [4], concealed, underestimated, insidiously subverting Germany [5]. The weaknesses of the law have been known for decades but no politician or party in power has been willing to do anything.

Massive fraud, often by the same ethnic groups, is made laughably easy by the government. For example, an estimated 1 to 1.5 billion Euros of taxpayer's money was paid out to fraudulent test centres: basically every shisha bar, tiny late-night corner shop, barber shop, etc., became a Covid test-centre overnight, reporting ridiculous numbers of tests, while in reality mostly being empty. They only had to provide their bank details and a kindergarten sketch of their 'facilities' in an online form to open one. The officials did not even bother with criminal background checks. Then they would send in a handwritten tally sheet and receive massive amounts of money. There were over a thousand test centres in Berlin alone. It was obvious what was going on, yet nothing effective was done about it. Another well-known example is social-security fraud, where they would arrive with their new Mercedes-Benz to collect basic welfare. Also: certain groups produce many children, collect child benefits for each one, as well as other benefits and just live on that.

Violence of immigrants, such as mass brawls, happens quite often here. The police has to come regularly to public swimming pools. Here are two examples that happened in the last two months in a public swimming pool: [2], [3]. The first one shows the start of mass brawl. The second one is a brawl between two groups of 12 people, one group got kicked out, but came back with impact weapons, sprayed irritant gas and wanted to attack the security personnel. The police found three of the suspects later and let them go after taking their data (they might get charged). They take over public spaces. This also illustrates the feeling of helplessness ordinary people might have, even if there's just one or two of them, because you know they have friends. You know they are easily offended and prone to extreme violence. You know the police/law/government won't do much to help you or to punish them or remove them from society. So you do the only thing you can, you stop going, you avoid places where they are, you flee when they come, you possibly start voting hard right.

Islamic terrorism\attacks now also happens in the neighbourhood, for example in '21 an Afghan refugee (Abdul Malik A.) stabbed a woman in the neck/throat, the reason he gave was: 'women shall not work'. She survived but is badly crippled. Now the taxpayer pays for her life-long care and his comfortable accommodation in a psychiatric hospital.

Let's not forget the rapes and group/gang rapes, 902 rapes (Vergewaltigung § 177 Abs. 6, 7, 8 StGB) were reported in Berlin in '21 [7]. If you search a bit, you'll find plenty of pretty bad real cases. Here [6] is a case where an Iraqi got 13.5 years for raping four victims (for multiple hours), assault and other serious offences, the youngest victim was 14 years old.

The number of shady looking people has grown over time, where I live. I rarely go out without a knife and I live in the better parts of Berlin.

Primary schools: An acquaintance, a retired teacher from Berlin, gave the general career advice to not become a teacher in Berlin because the children's behaviour has deteriorated so much. I know of a public primary school where violence (kicking, hitting, throwing things), insults and occasionally threats against classmates happens bi-weekly starting from the first grade, but nothing of consequence happens. Some also disrupt the class very massively. The measures taken, such as talking to the parents, a letter of reprimand, a school-yard ban or a couple of days off, do not seem to do anything. Some victims have expressed their unhappiness about this and the often bad/loud learning environment but the teachers/school don't have the legal means to do anything. There are schools in Berlin where much worse stuff happens, there are better ones as well. The alternative are private schools, with the problem that the classmates tend to be from rich families, leading the child to expect or wish for expensive vacations and things.

Public Transportation: It's mediocre. You mostly get where you want to go, but it's expensive, and sometimes it's filled with obnoxious people: drunks, people talking extremely loud, beggars, gypsies. Many station entrances frequently smell of piss. I know a guy that said he only has a car because he wants to avoid the scum in the trains. About half the people don't wear the mandatory mask in the trains (not just Berlin, also regional trains). Thanks to them, I probably got Covid. It's not enforced at all, even the train personnel just ignore it. I think many are afraid to say anything, because they might get shot in the head, beaten up, threatened with a knife or insulted, which has all happened.

Housing: rent has been going up for some years. Good districts have become unaffordable if you are not well off. People stopped moving “Umzugsstreik” because new rent has become so expensive. (The law limits raises somewhat.) You see classifieds-notes posted on street lamps offering 2000€-4000€ reward for help to find a flat 2-3 room flat with a rent of up to x, often with phrases like: “we are desperate”. I have given up.

The design of the general pension system and public health insurance are fundamentally broken for the coming times. I do not know one person under 45 that expects to receive anything worthwhile from the pension system. The insurance premiums are going to rise even more and the payouts for yourself will have been inflated away. Wait times for an appointment with specialist doctors can be multiple months.

It's not just Berlin. It's spreading.

Politics ignores the problem, as they have for years. They don’t go for the root causes. People not directly affected ignore it or don't perceive it until they are affected. The people I know are growing more and more dissatisfied and angry.

Obvious, simple solutions, are ignored because they are not politically correct. For now. As things deteriorate further, add a hard recession/depression and this might change, fast. Winter is coming.

[1] http://dx.doi.org/10.7396/2021_1_B "Clankriminalität ist als Phänomen in Deutschland längst zur alltäglichen Realität geworden. [...] wird man sich von den eingesetzten Maßnahmen und Strategien nicht eine Beseitigung von Clankriminalität erwarten dürfen, vielmehr gilt es eine Eindämmung der Gefahren und eine Verringerung der besonders negativen Erscheinungsformen anzustreben." [2] https://twitter.com/austausch_info/status/153881355654778880... [3] https://www.zeit.de/news/2022-07/21/schlaegerei-im-columbiab... [4] https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/mafia-in-deutschland-zahl-de... [5] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italienische_Mafia_in_Deutschl... [6] https://www.bz-berlin.de/polizei/menschen-vor-gericht/richte... [7] https://www.berlin.de/polizei/_assets/verschiedenes/pks/pks-...