I'm happy they come and ask me for help, but it feels like I'm a doormat. I'm now trying to run a startup, so it gets worse.
I don't mind helping my close friends though. I feel used when companies or people use my work and profit from it. The worse is when they advertise that they did it. I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense? Yikes I feel so dumb.
My family have told me I'm stupid, so I'm trying to set boundaries. Some kind fellow startup founders also told me to be more aggressive.
The worst is when people can see me contribute to my hobby projects (open source), or I teach people for free, but that's because I like doing these things. The people then make me feel bad by constantly asking for help, especially for profit generation.
I'm still in my twenties, but I feel like this can't go on forever. Does anyone have any suggestions what I should do?
Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great.
If I were in that situation, and someone asked me to help with something that I didn't want to do for free, I'd tell them my rates.
"I need help setting up my WIFI. Can you help with that?"
"Sure. I charge $50/hr for tech work."
They're going to look shocked, upset, and probably angry. That's okay, because they were trying to use you and failed.
Then they're going to pull the, "I thought we were friends" or "You won't help a friend?" card. Tell them that you've got a lot going on in your life and are having to prioritize things. Tell them maintaining work-life balance has been hard, and you're trying to fix it because you've been overworking for quite a long time.
When all of that starts to make you feel guilty, ask yourself: "When was the last time they helped me with something they could do that I couldn't?" If the answer is "last week" or "a lot", maybe you should actually help them.
But when the answer is "I can't remember" or "never" (and it usually will be), you can just stop feeling guilty. They're just using you.
And it's okay to just say "No, sorry, I can't help with that." When people ask me to set up their wifi now, I just refuse. That's a huge pit of pain because they'll ask you back to help with every stupid thing they don't want to understand. I just flat refuse now for anyone other than very close friends and family. And I've got some family I'd tell "No", too.
You are not stupid, you are well meaning. That doesn't mean the actions here are correct, but as a first step:
1. Do not let anyone insult you. Your time is too valuable to let people simply tear you down.
> The worst is when people can see me contribute to my hobby projects (open source), or I teach people for free
Open source and teaching individuals are good and correct things to do.
2. Don't let other people set your priorities. You want to mentor with your free time? Do it.
> I feel used when companies or people use my work and profit from it. The worse is when they advertise that they did it. I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense?
There is a line where if someone is profiting off your effort, you deserve that profit. That line is flexible and personal. I prefer telling people upfront, before we engage, where that line is. I say something like:
"I'm happy to give you general and off the cuff advice for free. If you want me to consult, that's $350/hr. Any NDAs or PIAs are $800 to have reviewed - that doesn't mean accepted or signed. Travel is $2,000 a day."
Obviously, tune this for the audience. If your broke buddy is building his first app, maybe ask him to deal you in for 5% of his profits instead or something.
3. Your time is valuable. It's ok to charge for it. "Treat yourself like a friend you are helping"
Whether it's to me or someone else, don't be shy about reaching out and getting mentoring yourself. Consider getting mentoring from someone with a business focus versus computer focus.
I own a laser cutter. Owning a laser cutter is sort of like the maker equivalent of being "that friend with the truck." I eventually settled on this set of rules:
1. I will cut anything (within reason) that you supply me files for. 2. If you don't know how to make the files, I'll sit with you and teach you how.
And those two rules will keep just about everyone from ever using my laser. I even offer to supply material, for small projects, and it doesn't help. It's astounding the excuses people will come up with to avoid spending a couple hours learning how to use a ruler and LibreCAD.
Everyone seems to want laser cut stuff, but no one wants to put forth any effort whatsoever to make that happen.
So, I recommend that as an option: if you want to get people to pay you for stuff, because you want the money, you can absolutely do that. But if you're like me and don't really care about the money, then instead find a way to filter out the people / requests who aren't serious about it. Require that they put in some effort of their own to make their thing happen, and that that effort be advanced up front before you do your piece. This means you can still help the friends who really value your time, while no longer having that time wasted by the other ones.
I feel so accomplished!! I started asking THEM questions about their project, what they wanted. I then asked them about their budget, their proposed use case of whatever software they're building, and crept in talks on compenstation etc - ie I mentioned how I had my own startup, and I can't help too much etc.
They're offering a reasonable 15% equity in their venture + wages!!!! As suggested by people here, I'm gonna get this all in writing, do nothing on the job until its written, and add clauses on late payments, etc!
I couldn't respond to everyone here - but I wanna say - THANK YOU! Big THANKS!! I think I grew the most today in like 2 years :))))))
You can ignore the women part, but the author touches on some of the reasons people act like you act and how to change.
If you have positive cash flow right now I’d recommend finding a therapist, since personality changes like this can take some deep digging. Personally I have found experiential therapy useful, things like EMDR, process work, gestalt, or even jungian dream analysis. Many on HN speak positively about cognitive therapy like CBT. You will need to spend a little time exploring and may not find the right fit with your first therapist. Good luck!
> Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great.
My suggestion is: you think it will be painful to say no, but: just don't do what they ask.
I really really put a lot of thought into this during years, and usually the best thing you can do is to put a small condition beforehand that will make it a little bit easier for you to help and a little road bump for those asking. 90% of them will back out. This also helps people to understand that there's WORK involved and you do not just clap your hands and solve things. Let them do a piece of that work.
As an example, you need your laptop fixed? Just ask them to make a full backup of their hard drive because if something goes wrong they might lose all their files. Or make an excuse, someone blamed you for losing their files once and now you don't want the responsibility and ask everyone to demonstrate they have a mirror copy of their drive.
People need WiFi set up? Ask them to have ready all the ISP data they need like subscription # in case you need to call, WiFi password if given, and so on. Some of them will figure it out by themselves once they have all the data.
If you let them, people will grind you down without even realizing it. Or they do, and don't care.
Never ask for pay. Demand it, and refuse to work until you've been paid. There are four words you need to learn to speak without fear, and shout if necessary. Anybody who has seen GoodFellas knows what they are. The four magic words are...
FUCK YOU. PAY ME.
Clip from GoodFellas: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48>
Also, you need to watch Mark Monteiro's lecture, "Fuck You, Pay me" at <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U>.
My employers can always rely on me. But they gotta come up with my money every week.
Payroll company fucked up? FUCK YOU. PAY ME.
The client didn't pay you? FUCK YOU. PAY ME.
It's an emergency and you want me to work late? FUCK YOU. PAY ME TIME AND A HALF FOR OVERTIME.
Look - there is something wrong with you. At some point the lesson that you should help others and be kind was indoctrinated into you, probably by your parents, maybe because they knew based on looks you would never get laid and have grandchildren, and so you would have to be kind to have a chance.
People exchange their time for money. Everyone does this, that’s how we all eat, so why is your wallet empty?.
If you’re paid for a job do it right and proper. If your pay is overlooked, become unreachable. Block them on your phone and email. Just cease to exist. It works. You’ll end up with people who respect you enough not to steal your time - and those people are NOT your friends, even if they’re friendly because they want to use you. As you well know.
And that brings me to another point. If you know something isn’t in your interests then why are you doing it? I ask smokers that. Pull on that thread.
Good luck, and BTW, your time as a startup founder is worth $1000 per hour. Seriously.
Of course if you're just answering questions here and there (like I'm doing here for you on HN), IMO that's what friends help friends do. But, when it comes to really doing work for someone, you have to be compensated. And like I said above, you have to be explicit about the compensation. Otherwise you learn the lesson the hard way like my friend did where he lost a bunch of friends b/c of a startup where assumptions were made and things went south.
Is that Open Source GPL/MIT? You define the license.
> The worse is when they advertise that they did it.
Why do you care?
> I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense? Yikes I feel so dumb.
I don't get it. You traveled to some company at your own expense to solve a problem to them?
> I'm still in my twenties, but I feel like this can't go on forever. Does anyone have any suggestions what I should do?
Define your friends. You'll likely find out you have 1-3 actual friends and the rest are just people you happen to know. Also define the members of your family you are obligated/responsible to help. For everybody else, just ignore the requests and they'll stop asking.
> Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great.
Don't ask "friends" to pay. They don't have the budget. Do ask companies to pay beforehand; however. Don't worry, if they do actually need you; they'll fork the cash.
But if its trivial stuff - setup windows, wifi, help moving house etc. I’m more than happy to help, thats what friends are for. The trick is to _also ask about stuff in return_. I’m terrible at picking clothes, so I ask female friends who’s taste I trust to help me pick stuff for me. Things like that.
Asking for help is what builds bonds and friendships, and then whatever they ask of you wouldn’t feel unpleasant.
Just don’t do work stuff :-D
I've been a consultant for over 20yrs and run into this with current and past customers alike. I've even been asked to bogus interviews just to be asked questions to problems they're trying to solve. I handle this by plainly stating my value and bill rates up front letting them know my time and experience is valuable.
While I usually entertain a certain level of discussion I'll typically ask more questions of them about what they're trying to solve rather than just answering their questions or giving away solutions. If they need more of my time or assistance I say I'm happy to help, let them know my availability and will offer to draft a statement of work if they want to proceed. This will weed out those looking for a free ride from those who respect you and take you seriously.
If you're already working for a customer and they ask for your help in a totally separate area, same thing applies offer simple advice if asked, but if it becomes additional work they task you with ask for a change scope to the current statement of work and adjust your rates or hours accordingly and set proper expectations for delivery of current and new scope.
Best of luck.
But you found where that leads: to 'infinite' helping people, with no expected 'reward' except you having helped another.
I believe this mindset is 'injected' (programmed) at a young age; maybe you are an older sibling, and had to help with the youngsters. Maybe some other family members needed you to do things. I'm only saying we are taught to behave this way, unconsciously, by circumstances of our childhoods.
For this reason (the behavior partly defines who 'we' are), wanting to 'be different' means changing who we are, as a person. We have to put that part that is no longer serving us ('help others, always') to rest, and replace it with a better belief that supports us now. Because the 'programming' that results in this behavior is likely pretty solid, I agree with another response here that therapy would be worth considering.
For me, I've decided it's better to get beat in some deal from time to time, if it allows me to retain the fiction that 'all people are nice to me, and I will be nice to them'. But I am often re-evaluating even this, because, heck, even Wayne Dyer mentioned it's hard to please more than half the folks - so just accept that.
I applaud you for your awareness of this issue, and I would appreciate if you could post again next year on how you've dealt with this problem. Good Luck.
Also, some people tend to unconsciously feel that if you enjoy doing something it's not valuable (it may be an unintended consequence of valuing hard work: if you enjoy it, it's not hard work, so it's not valuable, idk).
This is a mindset, and I think you're starting to understand that it's not conductive to economic success and happiness.
Sometimes what you get is not pay as in money, you may be owed a favor, networked into some area you didn't have access before (i.e. the first one is free) or are just consciously doing it as a "donation" if you like for some good cause. But it still has value.
Sometimes what it helps is thinking about cost, not just actual cost (driving, wear and tear of tools, etc.), but think about opportunity cost: what could you have done with that time? Is it worth it to spend time on that?
Keep your priorities straight, what are your goals? Does doing this gets you closer or further away?
Sometimes even if they're willing to pay you, you may not want to do it, because money alone won't get you closer to your goals.
Once you start changing your mindset, saying 'no' starts becoming easier and you're better prepared to decide wether you should do something or not. What would make it worth your while, and it becomes clear what you should demand for it.
It's really hard, I've been there. You want to help people, it's nice helping them, you feel validated doing it. But in the longer term you end up feeling like you do now. It's harder when you have a product, especially if you start offering that for free, because very few people value free things.
The (kind of) flip side to this - get better at sales. It feels really icky and embarrassing at first, but learn to sell yourself and your product with a value attached it. If you're not happy doing it (for free or for money) learn to say 'no, sorry'. When people are paying, learn the phrase "that's out of scope for this project". Honestly, it's really hard, but you get better with practice.
For the teaching part - a friend gave me a really useful tip. Give them a massive task first, something like - "read this book, it's $17 on Amazon, we'll talk it through after, then I can give you some lessons." It very, very quickly separates the people who will actually do stuff, care, work on their own and you'll want to work with, from those who are just dipping in and will suck your time.
Others have already mentioned it, but for companies, the first response should probably be mentioning your hourly rate: "Sure, I usually work for €80/hour, let's setup a meeting to discuss what you need done". Such pre-sales meetings (including travel costs) are usually at your own expense, so you need to factor those in to your hourly rates.
Teaching can actually be a good starting point as well, both for network building and to assess their skills should you need them in the future. Still, remember that good teachers don't solve their students' problems for them: they only give pointers and explain concepts. If they ask you to do their work for them, you can turn it around and confront them with it: "I thought you wanted to learn? Of course, I can do it for you as well, but in that case I'll need to charge X/hour".
"Yes I'd be happy to help, I charge $100/hour and you can pay a $500 deposit online here: "
This will make "asking" for payment easier, and there will be no uncomfortable moment where you need to potentially haggle or negotiate fees and terms.
If I were rich, I would spend my time doing exactly what you’re doing: having fun working on cool software, with interesting people, and contributing to projects that get used in the real world. And I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about the messy side of handing money and invoices.
Of course, we all need to eat, and so you should work on learning how to handle the business side better. It can will be painful and frustrating at times, but some of the other commenters have great suggestions, so I don’t have anything to add.
But don’t be negative about what you’ve done so far! It sounds like you’re doing great at the most important parts of the job, which is finding projects and having the skills to pull them off. Like Paul Graham says, it’s easier teach business to coders, than to teach coding to businessmen.
You could start with "Hey I would love to help you and just for full transparency, I am happy to offer this 1st session complimentary but I do charge for subsequent sessions if you will need my help. Does that work for you ?". Then Pause and let them respond. You have made your process clear. Now it is upto them to accept or reject. If they say Yes sure, then next time you know that you are not doing work for them without a proposal/invoice upfront.
They might start respecting you and your time more.
It all comes down to learning how to say no (in other words, setting boundaries) and only sacrifice your time for the people who deserve it. You don’t owe anything to most and if they stop talking to you because you didn’t want to work for free for them then they aren’t worth keeping around IMHO.
There’s nothing wrong about shedding people if they’re only giving you trouble even if you’ve known them for years so don’t be afraid to do so.
https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/leadership-bs-fixing-workpl...
Then
https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/power-why-some-people-have-...
If you read and do, it will help you shift your theoretical understanding of power and apply it to the workplace
The good news is, you're in demand, so you have a good place to start!
The next time you're asked to help, ask them where you send the invoice. Or lay out some terms of engagement - what you will and won't do, how many hours you'll work, the hourly fee you're expecting, payment terms, and reasonable travel expenses (if any travel is involved).
Yes, that will probably turn a lot of people away, but if they're making money from your time and effort shouldn't you?
If you want to make a career out of helping people with little projects -- lots of people have made their careers as contractors, right?
You need to learn how to reject them
> if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great.
You need to learn how to state your fee.
The overall solution you're looking for is: how to be disagreeable.
It doesn't sound like you're stupid at all, it just sounds like you're a doormat and overly agreeable. There's nothing wrong with saying "sorry, I can't help you with that" or "I can do that for you if you pay me $X". It's literally that simple. The hard part is practicing it until it becomes easy.
If you want to do the thing, but for compensation or some other condition, there is also yes, but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPaClwd0W5w
Or yes, and...these are my rates. For example.
Dude, look at your responses here in this threat. You have said YES to each and every proposal. You have assigned yourself at least 20 hours of work, how is that going to fit into your tight schedule? You know it: it will not.
Just read back your own answers and you will see what your problem is. It might even lead you to the "you specific" answer.
I mean this very positive.
- do you think your friend is obligated to keep acting this way?
- what beliefs would you guess your friend has that guide their behavior?
- what beliefs would you encourage them to adopt instead?
My mother now has a trusted guy in her town who'll fix up her IT devices twice a year instead of a son sitting a few thousand miles away and I can honestly say "I don't even do that for my mum!". Only downside: My mother is jealous because as a (retried) medical specialist she cannot just refer the rest of our family to "some guy in your town" ;)
I've had my work literally go into whitepapers uncited, and folks simply refuse to answer my emails about the issue, so the plan is absent one of the places I'm talking to now hiring me, to just... leave. To emigrate.
(But maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow.)
> Turn everything into a transaction!
> Make them pay!
> Make them immediately do something for you in exchange!
It makes me think no one in this thread has actual friends.
Friendship is still mutual, its okay to say no you are busy, or you need space. Good friends can communicate their feelings. Friends can do things for you, and it doesn't have to always be material. Putting aside time for you can be friendship.
You really can't have it both ways. Pick a side, and commit to it. And after that stop caring about what others think of your choice.
This means you will have to think about your time and also people won't take advantage of you just because you don't charge.
Explain that you are being taken away from other work which pays, you may well get the Spanish Inquisition over your "customers" and income, you may get sob stories of how hard it is to bring up a family if they have kids, you will get bullied, you will get alot of emotional manipulation and guilt tripping put on you, but you need to become psychopathic over this and insist your time is money and this is what you are charging.
The emotional abuse is tough especially when it comes from family and friends but its what you have to do in order to be successful.
One of my ex customers, once said to me, "there are no friends in business" and its true, and he had worked dammed hard to build up his business.
If so, companies asking for help is a wonderful way to start milking some $$$.
it's even fun to watch them suffering.