Tesla is making us move or quit. Would I get severance?

(I'm not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Speak to a lawyer.)

One thing I don't think you should do is quit. That will absolve Tesla of all unemployment responsibilities, potentially severance, etc. If they want to fire you, make them do it. I think you should save this email (print a couple of copies too).

You do not need to "make a decision" - just tell them you're happy to come to the office but due to personal obligations you cannot do so until January 2023 and leave it at that. Continue to reiterate this to Tesla. Tesla likely wants you to "make a decision" (and is pressuring you) so that you voluntarily quit and they don't owe you anything. Continue to do your job during your normal work hours. Respond to emails and instant messages. If you lose access to a system, send an email and ask to have access restored so you can continue to work. Document these interactions.

-edit-

Continue to work, even if they appear to "ghost" you. If you lose all of your system access, send emails and call phone numbers and document each of these interactions. Depending on how far you take this and how far things go, you may be able to recoup wages.

For example: (Thursday, June 9th 2022 8:55 am, called my manager's phone and asked if they could assist in restoring access to my email account).

Also, check out the HN Who is Hiring thread :)

You're probably better off posting over on reddit in /r/legaladvice they've got a pretty good pool of properly qualified people who will point you in the right direction. This is highly likely to come down to details about what is in your contract or any agreements you made with your employer as well as the jurisdiction. Talking to a lawyer is going to cost you much less than getting screwed by Tesla, so highly recommend going to one for some advice. Outside of legal avenues, I would suggest to you that saying to your boss "I'm willing to locate, but I need flexibility to push that date from August back to January" is most likely going to work if they really do want you back in the office. It's not going to work if (as has been widely suggested) the back to office order is just a pretense for getting people to quit without paying severence.

The other thing to do obviously is talk to them about how it's industry standard for companies to provide financial help for relocation- that should also give you a good idea how serious they are.

Whatever decision you make, don't quit voluntarily - this is a way to get them out of paying unemployment or other benefits; Tesla is trying to do layoffs without satisfying the legal obligations of layoffs by tricking people into voluntarily quitting.

As others have also suggested, talking to an employment lawyer who can do a close reading of your contract would be Useful in this case too.

I would suggest that you can probably play the game a bit. Tell them you intend to move (you do). Delay coming into the office unless there is an ultimatum. Once that happens, book a hotel and show up on site for a week. Talk with your manager in person. Tell them about your difficulty arranging the move. Go back home. Delay, stall, use your pto, make them let you go.

The idea here is that this policy is likely going to become flexible quite rapidly. There are going to be lots of non-manufacturing employees, way more than the 10% they want gone that will not be able to deal with an emergency move on short notice. Exceptions will start to trickle through. Eyes will be averted. Quite arrangements will be made. You just have to hang on in the meantime.

Oh yeah, and talk with a lawyer, but the simple fact is that employee protections are quite weak in the US.

You should speak to your Trade Union representative.

Not in a TU? Now you know why people join!

A Trade Union is run by - and for - its members. Even if you're not in a traditional "blue collar" role, it's worth being a member. Your employer has many more lawyers than you do - by teaming up with other people in your industry, you can get access to top quality employment law advice.

For all the data driven ethos that execs tout, this is one area where decisions seem to be made at the whim rather than derived from data. I've seen many places where the business performance equals pre-pandemic years, with no discernable change to engineering velocity and hiring applications only increasing (albeit with a hit on conversion, go figure) and yet the execs stubbornly insist on return to office because "we believe it is better for all of us", "we need to bond and build community", "we need to see each other's faces" or some shit like that.

Does your contract or the email specifically contain a flexibility or mobility clause that might allow them to unilaterally change the location of your work? I'm guessing it does as if it did not there would be more brouhaha in the press about it, It might not be a bad idea to have a real lawyer take a look at your contract and other correspondence.

Musk does not strike me as the kind of person to offer severance and Tesla is looking to reduce it's workforce by 10%. Unfortunately, I think this is likely a shitty way to consider you to have abandoned your job rather than having to fire you outright.

I would not recommend moving for a job for a company that 1) is directly breaking an agreement they made when you were hired and 2) has announced a future 10% layoff for salaried employees.

What if you move and are still laid off?

Unless it’s a place you want to move to anyway that seems like a risky move.

Either way I would take this moment to consider your options. Maybe the job is great and they will let you stay remote. Maybe the move is one you want to make anyway. But don’t bet on the new, hastily changed situation being now stable and reliable.

I had a forced move for work a few years back - they imposed a deadline of a few months but after talking to the other managers and HR, I was able to push it back ~3 months. Basically I said I'm willing to move but I need more time to get it done (put house on market, etc.)

I think if this requirement is in good faith (well, as good as it can be given they are changing their minds on remote employment) and all you need is a few months before you can move, they could add some flexibility to this entirely self-imposed deadline.

On the other hand, I'd also start looking for another job.

This is a real problem with the American corporate model: employees don't get board representation. If you were working with VW in Germany, this would never fly, as the worker's union get seats on the VW board. In fact, this is why Germany is pushing back on Tesla's move:

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/elon-musk-tesla-musks-office...

> ""Whoever does not agree with such one-sided demands and wants to stand against them has the power of unions behind them in Germany, as per law," Birgit Dietze, the district leader for IG Metall in Berlin-Brandenburg-Sachsen, said. Employees at Tesla's plant in Gruenheide, Germany, elected 19 people to its first workers' council in February, setting the plant apart from others run by the carmaker in the United States and elsewhere without union representation, which Musk has fiercely resisted."

As far as practical matters, if they're going to do layoffs anyway then push for severance by not quitting and negotiating politely i.e. will they pay for a hotel room, make accomodations, etc. Legally, if they're not acting in good faith that's a strike against them, but labor protections are pretty weak in the USA.

Probably a very hot take, and not directly at OP - but now that we're at the divide of WFH - I'd imagine that tech workers being unionized would help on the leverage.

This sucks and perhaps if you talk to your manager they’d be willing to accomodate to your specific case. If no other option remains open, rather than quitting by Friday you could play along and quit when the move deadline comes close in August. This will give you more time to look for something else. Good luck to you and others in this situation.

During the pandemic I worked from home for about a year but had to return to office eventually (and got covid-19 twice, luckily it wasn’t too serious). However, some folks were accomodated to work remotely permanently depending on their situation though a few were forced to quit.

Before you do anything, talk to a lawyer.

Do not quit and unless they make it worth your while ($$) look for another job. Do you really want to stay with an employer that treats its employees with disdain if you don’t have to. If they offer severance and it’s enough to cover your needs and you’re confident you can find something comparable, I would then consider it.

A cynical take, Tesla has a great financial position - albeit with an extreme P/E ratio. A few years of growth should absolve any need to reduce headcount, reducing headcount while under high growth may be counter productive.

My bet is that Elon decided that people need to go to the office, and simultaneously decided that the only way to make this happen was to announce headcount reductions and instill fear into managers, and employees alike. Most companies have been in a prisoners dilemma where they want to bring people back to the office, but can't due to the risk that a large number of staff leave voluntarily. TSLA is effectively saying that they will take a headcount reduction in order to go back to the office.

If I were in this boat, and I needed to work remote - then I'd look around for another option. Organizations that manage via fear tend to turn toxic in a hurry.

Absolutely talk to a lawyer instead of the internet!

It's really cool when your CEO effectively lays you off via drunken Twitter rant. I'd be running for the exits if I were at that company.

constructive dismissal is the name for the thing that is being done to you.

sorry you have to lawyer up but you have to lawyer up.

Agreements over email are still agreements. Make sure you have a screenshot of that email; take it with your phone rather than using the screenshot utility of your computer in case they're watching you.

Aside from that, I agree with everyone else, talk to a lawyer today. Based on what I am reading I think this looks like a potential constructive dismissal situation.

The fact that you're willing to relocate by Jan also shows you're willing to play ball with them. If that is in fact how you feel, it's possible that your lawyer will encourage you to tell them so, as if they refuse they start to look unreasonable (and hence, just disguising the dismissal).

Still, talk to a lawyer today.

So it sounds like Tesla is ok for you to stay remote until August 2022, and you are happy to be local from January 2023. So really you only have a four month gap.

One option is to call their bluff. But you should only do this when you have a fallback, so you should be able to push for a few week extension to make a decision. Since they'd expect you to move by August, there is surely some wiggle room for making a decision. And then start interviewing elsewhere, and tell them "I'm not moving" when you get an offer, and see how they proceed. They might say "ok", in which case you can review the benefit of staying vs. taking the offer. They might fire you, in which case you can take the offer and push for a payout from Tesla.

You could also propose a solution where you travel regularly (say 1-2 times a month) to a Tesla office between September and December, in advance of a January move. It's important that you are clear that this is approach must be funded by Tesla - flights, hotels, per diem. They might not accept it, but at least it potentially kicks off a negotiation conversation.

Regarding severance - it really depends on your employment agreement (which might specifically call out severance) + jurisdiction of employment. You may live in an at-will jurisdiction but have a contract that guarantees you a notice period / severance. Your contract also may say you are an at-will employee with no severance, but live in a jurisdiction where employees are protected (in which case the contract clauses may be void). All of this is highly dependent on your individual situation and for that you should seek legal advice.

I am not a lawyer - you need to speak to one - a really good one, specializing in employment law in your state and probably also in California/Texas or whatever state your management/'official site is located. Things get complicated in a hurry and you'll want to preserve your options.

In general, as others have advised, do not quit voluntarily as that basically gives away the store — Tesla will have no obligation whatsoever for severance, unemployment comp, etc. It appears that this is also why Elon tweeted something like "if you don't show up we will assume you quit" - that's a classic employer's line to evade any responsibility for terminating your employment, and put you at best in a situation of arguing about 'constructive termination' before even arguing about for cause, etc.

I also second the advice to keep doing your job to the fullest, attempt to work around any obstacles such as system access removed, etc., and *document everything* (on non-company property and paper).

Do not try to cheap out on this, do some research, get some good recommendations for a real expert focused on that area of law. It'll be worth every penny.

The OP seems to have received great advice here. So I'd like to ask a related question: has anyone here been laid off and received unemployment benefits?

I was laid off pretty early in my career due to "restructuring." I was unable to receive any UE benefits because the state unemployment office forced me to apply to jobs that were paying substantially less than the one I lost (hourly, minimum wage +20% or so), and since I was a qualified candidate, I'd get offers that I'd turn down. The unemployment office never actually gave me anything because I kept turning down offers. After like two weeks, I found another job, so the situation became moot.

This experience has colored my opinion of unemployment for tech workers such that I think it doesn't really exist for us. So I'm curious if my experience was normal or not. It seems better to leave on one's own terms rather than trying to collect a meager severance and non-existent unemployment.

Get your contract. Read it over. Find out exactly what it spells out with regards to your obligations and theirs in this regard.

If your contract allows them to obligate you to work in a physical office, you could be fired with cause. It could allow them to deny you severance. And it's a whole bag of worms concerning unemployment, etc (depending on where you live).

So, yeah. Read your contract. Read that email. Do your best to interpret it as literally as possible. Try to determine what it plainly says. Then interpret it in the worst way possible for you. Then interpret it in the worst way possible for them.

Then go to a lawyer, explain your situation as simply as possible. You were hired for remote work, they are mandating you go back into the office, you cannot until at least January 2023. Give them a copy of your contract and that email. Let them read it. Then ask what are your options.

If you acceptance of the contract was based on the agreement reached in the email, let the lawyer know that as well.

A question that was posed in the reddit version of this post...

Are there any arbitration agreements that were signed as a condition for employment? If so, what do they say about where any issues are resolved and who resolves them?

For context, while this is for factory workers I would be surprised if there isn't similar paperwork for engineers. https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/05/24/tesla-loses-bid-to-sh...

> Alameda County Superior Court Judge Stephen Kaus ruled Monday that the female worker who filed the complaint can proceed with her case — even though she signed an arbitration agreement giving up her right to sue.

Brining this up will likely need to clear the first hurdle of "move this from arbitration to courts" and then win in the courts too.

Why not turn the choice back around on them? Tell them you're staying full remote. Let them lay you off or give in.

Do not quit, but discuss your situation with your manager. Things might not be so bad as Elon makes them appear. As you say, you are willing to move, just 4 months later. I can hardly imagine that your manager wouldn't be willing to find some solution for this. Unless he already wanted to get rid of you anyway of course.

> Do you think I would get severance if I tell them I refuse to relocate?

that's entirely dependent upon the people enforcing this. They're absolutely not required to give _anyone_ severance _ever_. As this is a complete [redacted] move I would proceed with the assumption that they're going to screw you over as thoroughly as possible regardless of how you respond.

However, it is very important that you _do not quit_, and carefully word anything you respond with to not make it sound like "i'm leaving if i can't stay remote" because if they're going to get rid of your job you want them to fire you because then you can get unemployment insurance while you look for a new job. It won't be bad on your resume because you can honestly just say you were laid off when they forced everyone to move and no future employer will care.

Just find another job from a remote friendly company. It is not like it is hard to find these days. You don't need to quit until you have found it, just work as you always did and state that you can't move until next january.

You have virtually no risk anyway, the market is on your side.

One thing that you can definitively do that doesn't require legal advice is: update your LinkedIn. Maybe apply to posts with some Tesla competitors. Maybe do some interviews. Just to see. Maybe they are more flexible with the remote thing.

>>Would I get severance?

Severance is almost always an agreement between the employer and employee. It is not mandated at the federal level[1].

But certain states may mandate minimal severance under certain conditions.[2]

[1] https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/severancepay

[2] https://www.hrdive.com/news/new-jersey-becomes-1st-state-to-...

Be very clear in written form that you do not want to resign from your position and would prefer to relocate in January 2023 as that is the best time for you and your family. If they reply back that this is not possible then ask HR about severance as part of your termination and layoff process. Use all these terms in written form to make sure it is documented and very clear where you stand.

Speaking as someone who worked for Tesla before they will absolutely ghost you if you give them an inch to do so. Make sure you have your contacts and e-mails properly documented and stay in constant communication.

Talk to a lawyer in your area, and don't quit. Make them fire you.

Whether you will get severance really depends on the company and (more importantly) where you live. None of us can answer the question for you.

I know that, where I live, I wouldn't have any recourse or rights to severance if I were fired by Tesla for not relocating. State laws here basically say that the company can fire me at any time for any reason as long as they don't make it absolutely obvious they're doing it because of a protected status (e.g. race or age). But that's where I live. Not where you live.

Of course, I'm not in your situation, so I'm not sure how exactly I would react. But what I think I would do is:

* Let HR/management know that you are unable to move until January 2023 due to personal constraints and the fact that you were promised a remote role when hired.

* Simply ask them for an exception to keep your employment but allow you to move back to the office in January 2023 and not by August 2022.

* If they disallow the exception, ask them if you will be receiving severance pay.

* In any of the scenarios, start looking for a new job that doesn't treat you like this.

Elon did say that there would be provisions for exceptional employees. Tell management you're onboard to be fully in office by X date (January 2023) and ask if you can make up for this with a few scheduled in office time periods between now and then, meaning you spend a week in the office and stay at a hotel. If you're a employee that's delivering value and kicking ass they should accommodate you and if they don't there are better jobs out there.

You’re typically an at-will employee. Meaning anyone can leave the agreement at any time for almost any reason. In this case, they made a business decision to have work in-office, they probably don’t have to give severance (though shitty if they don’t).

That said, don’t quit. Explain (in writing), but what was agreed during hiring. Further explain when / how soon you can move and express willingness to comply, but short term obligations can’t be adjusted so rapidly.

Serious question: Why would you want to work at a company that treats their employees like this? Is the prestige of working at Tesla really worth it?

> Many suspect the unexpected call for in-person work was a way to get people to quit and avoid paying severance for layoffs.

I think they are 100% correct. IBM did the same rug pull on remote workers years ago (despite pioneering it) and AFAIK it was just a way to reduce headcount. I would just move on and find a company that sees that remote work is the future and here to stay.

Severance in which outcome? If you refuse to relocate, and get fired? Or if you refuse to relocate, and continue working until August?

You are missing all sorts of important information in this post. For example what country and or state do you live in? Really though you should go find a local employment lawyer and talk to them, as even if your contract says that you must do X that doesn't mean you actually have to do said thing depending upon your area's laws.

Look at your contract and search for keywords like "remote", "(re)location", "mobility", and "flexibility" to see what it says about relocation.

Do you have a good relationship with your supervisor? Maybe this is something you can ask them.

But your safest bet is getting a lawyer to read over the contract, as others have suggested.

In addition to the comments people have left, if ANY of the the reasons are medical or risks to your family from the pandemic, make sure to immediately make your manager aware of those in email as part of the why.

(There is very high legal risk to a company for firing someone with medical issues.)

Ignore what Elon says. His reasons for putting things out there for people to read are almost never what they appear to be. He's a master of manipulating the media (and therefore the stock market), and his intent is (probably) not what you think it is.

Talk to your line manager.

Look, do the right intelligent thing; instead of taking someone's advice on internet get a decent lawyer as they will be able to tell you whether you have case as sometimes communication not in the contract actually becomes part of the contract.

Explain that your SO is in school/??? etc and you will not be free to move until DDD date

Make up a sign, "tesla Inc remote stack office" for your residence.....make it visible online only, web site etc....

Just for my own clarification as there's been a lot of misreporting on this subject, but has your own manager told you that you need to come into the office or did you only see Elon's email?

Why is this a question that Hacker News and not HR or your manager?

Severance is a company specific policy unless you are talking about unemployment. Only Tesla has answer this question and a lawyer will ask you the same questions

As an aside, it feels remarkable how Tesla can be revolutionary and scummy at the same time by trying to make their employees resign instead of laying off. How?

Whatever the problem is that is preventing you from moving, tell you boss about it and have him fund the move/get you out of your lease/etc..

Ask an employment lawyer & don't sign anything until you do.

I don't think your employer can just unilaterally declare a contract is all of a sudden void.

I don't have advice, but sorry you have to deal with this frustrating circumstance. Hope you're able to get a new job quickly.

Look at the contract. No doubt is says employment-at-will. 99.9% chance they are not legally bound to pay you a severance.

Speak with them and let them know you can move in January. If they value you they will be willing to make an exception.

People I’ve seen get laid off are only getting 1 weeks pay. And no extra stocks vested.

Have you talked to your manager?

Yeah surely contact an employment lawyer for sure. This is tricky. Good luck!

Be careful, Tesla and Elon Musk aren’t known for handling employee disagreements well. There are multiple reports of rage firings, intimidation, wire tapping employee phones, and even SWATing a whistleblower.

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-elon-musk-ruthlessly-f...

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-elon...

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-19/tesla-bla...

Personally, I would get a lawyer for this. This is horrifically scummy.

Check you contract and maybe get a lawyer involved.

Agreements usually can’t be voided just like that, no matter how smart elon musk thinks he is.

Does Tesla pay for relocation?

Any chance you can share the text in the email that says you can work remote? It might not matter but depending on that wording you may or may not have something to work with.

This is not the solution you prob want but if you are interested in a remote okay, top 15 levels.fyi comp role hit me up and let’s see if we can get you in where I’m at. Email in profile

Off topic but does this mean the pandemic is over? I’ve had a concern in the back of my mind that next winter we could end up back into lock downs. I really don’t want to be right, I would rather my employer force me back in than have this go on any longer.

However, luckily my employer seems to be committed to allowing us to work flexibly remote.

Don't quit. Make them fire you. It's a lot harder to collect unemployment benefits if the state thinks you left voluntarily.

you usually get 1 month severance if you agree to voluntary separation. Otherwise, if you are fired you can get unemployment. Some companies note that you were fired in their employment records.

edit: why is this downvoted. I was given this choice in two places, lol.

Don't post on Hacker News. Ask your manager and HR.

It's not a pleasant development for the original poster, but as a side note, I, for one, would take any opportunity to work for Tesla if I could, and being separated from SO for a few months would not be a reason not to accept the offer or quit.