HACKER Q&A
📣 etewiah

Is there an “uncanny valley” effect with startup MVPs?


I am asking because I have noticed that as I build better landing pages for my MVPs I get judged more harshly. This got me thinking if there is a way in which having a not particularly attractive landing page might get people to approach the product in a different way.


  👤 naet Accepted Answer ✓
Checking your actual landing page ( https://propertywebbuilder.com ) and my opinion is... that it isn't a very good landing page. The sizing and spacing are awkward and blocky, your color scheme clashes with your images, the images are generic and tacky, everything is too big and wide, etc. Maybe because you worked on it you feel that it is a great modern style landing page, but that isn't how it reads to me (and seemingly to other people as well).

Maybe you look at a SIMPLER site like https://tom.preston-werner.com/ and mistakenly equate that with a "worse" landing page. Actually though this simple page has bullet proof styling, and slapping some stock images on it like you did on your page wouldn't make it better, it would make it way worse.

Rather than looking for an external factor like a "mythical uncanny valley" to explain your landing page's poor performance, look inwards at your individual styling and what could be improved.


👤 ChrisMarshallNY
I worked (in the US), with a French guy, who had lived in the US for many years (as an adult).

He had very little accent. He had obviously worked very hard to remove the accent (big job), but he still understood English as a secondary language, and sometimes had difficulty comprehending dialogue (especially in New York, where we talk quickly).

People didn’t cut him slack for the lack of comprehension, where I think they would have, if he had a stronger accent.

I also knew an Italian, who had a strong accent, but a better command of English than most native speakers. I think he deliberately played his accent up.


👤 michaelscott
This is partially why UX research typically starts with rough wireframes rather than full application design, even in front of clients. The idea is that the lack of fidelity forces the client/user to focus on the functionality of the app rather than the bells and whistles of the design (especially of the visual kind).

The impression I think is that the more polished a product or MVP looks, the more "finished" it is and therefore the more open it'll be to criticism (there's literally more of the product to criticise). This could be a good thing, since it gives you much more insight into what needs to be improved for the final product


👤 codeptualize
I do think there is something like the uncanny valley effect. The distinction is likely "no design"/minimalism vs "bad design".

Some pages show very clearly that the focus was not on designing a good looking appealing page, either minimal on purpose, or just a bit dated (like hackernews, or old reddit). Not bad, it's familiar, functional, fine.

Other pages are designed to do other things; for example evoke desire, excitement and/or delight (like Apple, Stripe).

Then there are pages that want to be Apple, but don't quite succeed. A lot of websites that use Bootstrap or material design are like that. It's superficial design, they have some of the styles, but it's very clear there is a lack of design, lack of storytelling, lack of substance. It's a bit cringy to look at, it evokes negative feelings.

That doesn't mean all is lost, even experienced designers often go through that phase in the design process, they just are unlikely to release it haha. Keep asking yourself questions; What do I want it to do? Why isn't it doing it right now? Why does it look off? Look at examples that do achieve what you want, what exactly is it that is different? Etc etc. And then iterate, iterate, iterate.

Design often looks simple/obvious, but it takes a lot of practice, perseverance and struggle to get good at it.


👤 nkrisc
My experience presenting designs of various levels of fidelity, is this:

If the design appears obviously incomplete or unfinished, much critical judgement is withheld since it's assumed that whatever criticism they have will be addressed by the final design. Depending on your goal, this can be helpful or even counterproductive (maybe the finished design won't be how they assume it will be). Or others will instead focus on high-level feedback like addressing the overall theme and direction instead of the minutiae of the design.

If the design appears highly polished, then any issue, however minor, is assumed to be "finalized" and thus the criticism pours out.

If you make it appear completed, then people will assume it is in fact completed. If you're still working on it, make it look clearly unfinished.

However, no matter how much you stress it is a prototype or make it look as such, someone will still criticize the the fact it's all in black and white and all the text says "Lorem ipsum".


👤 laurencei
"I have noticed that as I build better landing pages for my MVPs I get judged more harshly"

Can I ask - why do you think you are building a "better" landing page? If you are getting judged more harshly, doesnt that mean your pages are not actually "better"? Maybe as you are building more pages, your subjective opinion of your own designs has changed....

I've seen it a few times on MVPs launched here. Some new YC company and their flashy homepage, but when I browse the homepage I have no idea what the company actually does. The pages are clean, but the actual idea is vague...


👤 jbreckmckye
Could it be your artwork? There is a general backlash against "corporate Memphis", with its cartoonish style and self-assured optimism:

https://t-artmagazine.com/what-is-corporate-memphis-and-why-...

> Illustrations in the style, with its aggressively friendly expressions, portray a world that is uncannily utopian.


👤 etewiah
So, some explanation is due here. My site is not ready for a public launch yet - I just made this post because of what I found out from testing with a small number of my friends. A few people followed my profile to find out what I am working on and now the cat's out of the bag - on the one hand I'm happy for the publicity but on the other hand I'm bummed that I'm not ready for it.

Believe me, the site was worse a few weeks ago - or at least a lot more basic. The feedback I got from the few people I showed that site to was quite positive though. As I made what I thought were improvements though I started getting more and more negative feedback hence the observation in my original post.

True, some of what I thought were improvements probably made the site worse. The lesson I've learnt is still valid though - I should have paid someone early on in the product development stage to take care of the UI.

I will pay someone this week to do that and hopefully launch properly sometime in June. I bet when I actually do a "Show HN" with a decent looking landing page it will not garner as much interest as this has - people love picking out mistakes!

Still, a big thank you to everyone who has provided feedback. I've fixed the obvious errors. Will tackle the others when I get the chance.


👤 jdvh
Getting harsh feedback isn't so bad, really. You get that kind of feedback either because people think your MVP is something it's not or because of quality issues, and you can fix both.

A bad landing page filters out people who are just moderately interested. They'll just close the tab and move on. That's going to skew the feedback you'll get.

If you don't get (much) feedback at all you're in a much worse spot. Then you don't know if your MVP sucks, or it doesn't but your landing page sucks, or maybe both are fine but you're just not getting the right traffic. It's way harder to figure out what to do when nobody seems to care at all about what you've built.


👤 sideproject
There is a reason why there exists an entire "landing page industry" because there is a level of science and art mixed into building it.

If you think it's visually stunning without being informative or just pure information without attention-grabbing visuals, then you'll fall on either side of the hill.

Then there are other factors including your target audience, copy-test, sentiment, color combinations etc.

I've build many landing pages in my life time and I am not sure if I still get it. If you are optimizing for HN-audience, I would say it also requires a different strategy (e.g. demo first without signing up?)


👤 pseudolus
I had to look up your profile and I'm assuming your site is https://propertywebbuilder.com. It looks good but kind of bland in that I can't recall ever having visited a real estate web site that doesn't feature some actual photos of homes. Additionally, you don't appear to have any links to sample pages that incorporate your product.

edit: I noticed that at the very bottom there's a link to a demo but the demo doesn't load.


👤 ei8htyfi5e
This is an issue with getting feedback on designs too. Wonder if there is overlap in the problem space.

If you present pixel perfect designs for feedback, feedback is less specific because users think the product is finished. However, when it’s a pencil sketch, users become critical and critique everything because they don’t think anything is set in stone. I try to present LoFi everything until final sign off.


👤 rsweeney21
If I could offer some advice from the perspective of a developer that has built several MVPs and done all my own design work. (FWIW Two of my MVPs made it to real businesses generating over $1M in ARR each.)

Find a product that has a design you want to emulate and just copy it. Copy the colors, font styles, font sizes, element spacing, drop shadows...everything. For the illustrations or other content that is copy protected, just buy something that looks similar from shutterstock or some other website. I've followed this model repeatedly.

Design is important because a polished website can make you look like you are a larger, well established company. But it's not worth your time as a founder to master design.

That being said, the design on propertysquares.com looks amateurish and makes me feel like you are small.


👤 bilekas
> if there is a way in which having a not particularly attractive landing page might get people to approach the product in a different way

The colour scheme is a bit jarring.. Some odd spacing choices and no real direction of what the service does.

I'm pretty awful on my own with UI and UX, I rely heavily on others but when I'm in a pinch, I'll try find some inspiration on Behance or such. After years and years of outsourcing and studying other peoples work, I think I can notice what works and whats interesting new and what just seems off..

Its definitely a marathon and not a race so don't take this negatively. Don't be afraid to rely on other people for it!


👤 thecleaner
Do an A/B test. Please do share the results. :)

👤 p0nce
I feel a bit of the same when making UIs. If the UI is obviously bad/rushed then people will talk about the features more. If the UI is nice and polished, people will find their own one way to tell how it could have been 1% better.

👤 samwillis
I can't find it now, but I remember reading about 10 years ago about how long and ugly landing pages convert better. Now, I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to that theory, but it's an interesting one.

👤 dsugarman
I think people probably do, I imagine it feels like a broken promise to them. My question would is why spend so much time on the marketing instead of the product? You need a core group of users to really love the product instead of a lot of people to kind of like it. It sounds like you got some users and a lot of feedback already which is awesome, I would get to work on getting the product really awesome for those early adopters who stick around. You can continuously market to those who didn't with every feature release so they see the rate of progress.

👤 a_square_peg
I think there is definitely an 'uncanny valley' with web pages and why UX-designers exist.

When a non-designer makes an update, there is always something off, whether it's the font, color-scheme, or sizing that's quite apparent. I'm not a designer myself but I think I can tell when a website had a lot of effort put into the initial design but not so much on maintenance and content updates - something always seems a bit off.


👤 mtoddsmith
I'm gonna play stupid and ask "where do I get the url for the properties I'm interested in". It's not explained at all on the page.

👤 alangibson
I'm getting ready to knock out a landing page to see if anyone is interested in a QR code sales tool I built for myself. I'm now thinking of having almost nothing but text explaining that 'hey I'm just trying to gauge interest. Here's what it does in plain language. Get on the mailing list of you're interested.' Almost an anti-landing page.

👤 BrandiATMuhkuh
I remember from my HCI class that the judgement of people varies depending on how polished your design looks.

If you design looks hand drawn you will get creative feedback. But if your design looks polished you will get binary (harsh) feedback.

You can see that design tools like balsamic have different renderings, exactly because of that.


👤 jonnydubowsky
When i come to the page and let my eyes naturally scan through, the phrase Dead Simple sticks out, which is probably not a great catch phrase for this app. It'd be cool if instead, a GIF showing the user experience led me right into trying it out with the "enter address here" section.

👤 quickthrower2
Sound like you have a sophisticated audience who are used to overly slick and modern landing pages. There is a good book about knowing where your market is at [1] in terms of sophistication.

[1] https://breakthroughadvertisingbook.com


👤 wbsss4412
I think the metaphor works in a sense.

The issue with your landing page is that it comes off as “designery” while at the same time not showing the polish that an actual designer would produce.

I can see that you’re trying, but it is clear that you don’t quite grasp what the intent of the design elements is supposed to be.


👤 d1sxeyes
Not sure what you mean by 'uncanny valley', this is just a simple case of raising expectations. The better designed the landing page, the higher the expectations of the product.

👤 brudgers
To get to a MVP, the focus should be on making the product better not the landing page better.

Making the landing page better is easy pretend work.

Making the product better is hard real work.

Good luck.


👤 lifefeed
Are you getting the same number of comments for better landing pages, but the comments are getting more detailed and nit-picky?

👤 ilikeitdark
I'd personally get rid of the expression "dead simple". Dead or any other negative words should be avoided.