Does anyone else lie on the internet?

Of course other people do this - the internet is full of trolls who get a kick out of their dishonesty, flame wars and generally selfish and disruptive behaviour.

Your justification is that you get a lot of engagement, even to the point of re-directing the conversation to suit your own personal interests. This perfectly fits the pattern of just being a self-interested, attention-seeking troll.

Alternatively, have you thought about the parallels to one of the major criticisms of Facebook, namely how their model prioritises engagement over providing value to the consumer?

The bit about how sometimes there is something useful posted in the thread is just trying to make yourself feel better. That information would likely have been posted anyway, and perhaps with better rankings if you hadn’t dedicated yourself to lowering the signal-to-noise ratio.

If you genuinely appreciated the honest and knowledgeable folks online, you wouldn’t continue to set up situations where they end up getting flamed. The point of an apology is not just to pay lip service to damage already done, it is to change your behaviour so that you do not pointlessly make other people’s lives worse in the future.

Except for donning the occasional robe and wizard hat, which I do not own, I do not do that.

Frankly your confession disturbed me a bit. Not because you (and doubtlessly other people) do it, but because I read the comments you cited and the lying is convincing enough to fool me.

I realize I have fallen for the naive idea that after almost 30 years of internet I have become inoculated to the BS floating around, as if I would have developed some kind of superpower. Thank you for the reality check. :-)

Your behavior seems less like trolling to me than some kind of appropriation: like a healthy person going online pretending to have cancer to get affection and support.

Have you ever thought that you might be making the internet a worse place and negatively impacting the people interact with? Do you care?

I've been participating in online communities since 1996 and no one has yet figured out that I am actually a dog.

Thanks for pissing in the pool I guess.

> Over the years I've found writing on HackerNews, Reddit and other online sites has given me an outlet to get creative and engage with folks in a way that will shift discourse towards something I'm more interested in.

Have you tried looking for communities for creative writing? There are places (including reddit) that post/accept writing prompts which spawn some discussion. You can do what you do, write fiction, get some engagement about the topic and be upfront about making it all up.

You might need help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_lying

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

Yeah, lots. Not most people, though. You seem like a pretty typical NPD case: all your reasons are about you, casual manipulation including in the way you’re treating people in the comments, little empathy, and increased desire for attention, be it upvotes or the outrage you’re trying to elicit by posting this.

Places like Reddit and Facebook are filled with this. What generally happens is the individual succeeds, but the community becomes boring, because people who can’t support each other never achieve much.

I wish you luck in finding your way to bigger and better things.

> I began noticing I received more upvotes and engagement when I...

You might be caring too much about this. I enjoy positive validation as much as anyone else, but I value quality discussion more highly. Especially when it comes to questions of ethics and health, I will say something when I feel it is important and truly not care what the reaction is.

To answer your question, No - I do not outright lie. I will try to simplify anecdotes to make a point more strongly or concisely. But I strive to stick to what I know and to the spirit of truth, even if I do selectively edit stories to spin them to be more relevant to discussions. I know some people would put that in the category of lying, but I think of it more as an aspect of story telling.

I have an ex-friend who could not shed the habit of "adversarial learning" which is related to this. Instead of trying to learn a subject by reading and experimenting and maybe asking somebody who actually knew it, he'd basically force people to educate him by correcting his misconceptions. The first gambit was usually "I could do this better" followed by a series of "you could just (ridiculous idea)" and cross-examination on details, until he felt satisfied.

That kind of disrespect, goading or manipulating people into providing information they would gladly have given in a less adversarial way, and never showing an ounce of gratitude, is a good way to lose friends. Not just me, and not just him, BTW. It's a pretty common behavior among the technically inclined, especially online. "If you want a right answer from the internet, post a wrong one." It's kind of funny when it's an accident, but when it becomes a constant deliberate habit it degrades the space for everyone.

Loads of other people do, as I'm sure you're aware. I don't, and I don't think there's anything positive or redeeming about it. You're just lowering the quality of hn for everyone else.

No. I don't lie online or IRL. The world has enough dishonesty, and I don't feel the need to partake or receive interaction online. I'll occasionally ask a question or answer one, but it's more of an idle interest.

I generally think that most people behave online in a manner they may not do IRL. I don't know if that's a net positive or negative thing overall.

I guess there are lies which aren't harmful (white lies?) and lies which are. Telling the difference isn't always easy. Sometimes the truth can be harmful as well, however at least the truth is real rather than fabricated.

Don't know where I'm going with this. Interesting question.

I personally would prefer if you didn't do this. It makes my experience using HN worse.

Obviously, you can do whatever you want. But you asked for my opinion :)

You are everything wrong with today’s internet.

If I make a claim or state an opinion outside of my normal expertise, I try to back it up with supporting links. Perhaps to similar cases or situations or scholarly articles.

I tend to remain fairly skeptical of claims by users whose names I don't recognise, if they don't provide them.

None of the linked comments did so.

Thank you for admitting to this. I won't judge you, you are human just like I am.

I don't want to take some kind of moral high ground here - however, I tend to skip topics I don't know about.

I've had my share of arguing with people online who, by my personal assertion, had no clue what they're talking about. To put it in context: developers who talk bad about PHP.

In the end I gave up doing so. I notice that if I'm perceived as a bad guy (i.e. I try to discredit you based on facts, I'll appear as bully and other people will get the noble instinct to defend the one being bullied). That gave me no credibility and all the credibility went to the other people.

Years later, I read stackoverflow.com questions and answers and I consistently run into absolute falsities related to PHP. I just don't have the energy to try to convince someone what's factually true and what's factually false, having been on the receiving end of discussions.

I used to care about correct information or how to give people means to try to assert if something sounds plausible or not, but at this point - I've no inclination to do so, my energy's gone and I don't even see what the gain is if I waste my precious energy to forcibly improve someone's understanding of the world.

I understand what your motives were, it was refreshing to read what you wrote. I repeat - I don't judge you as evil or bad, but it took some guts to admit to this. I salute you because of that!

Being a utilitarian, I don't think that lying (or anything else) is inherently immoral, and you can only judge the morality of intent based on intended and actual outcomes. So in that case, I'd say you've correctly assessed that your South Africa story is immoral for propagating a racist trope for your own entertainment, which could lead to confirming people's negative biases about South Africa and the (implied in your comment) racial conflict there.

As far as lying in general goes: you may be triggering conversation you find interesting, but have you considered the effect your lies have on the people who read your comments, believing they're truthful? You're giving people false confidence in your totally-made-up opinions thinking they're expert testimony. That can be harmful if people internalise the lies you tell and act based upon them. Not that anybody's making a framework out of just your posted comments, but we all absorb and interpret the information we take in and that can affect our perspectives.

As for whether I lie on the internet? No, and I don't get the appeal. If I want to trigger an interesting conversation, I don't feel the need to pretend to be somebody I'm not: I can just ask pertinent questions or state my actual perspective and bring about conflicting replies that way.

No, you're a bad person and you should be ashamed of yourself. I hope one day someone's lie on the internet will cause you great misfortune :)

That story/anecdote you made about South Africa is like 95% accurate, and I say that as someone actually living there (here?). Be careful that people aren't convincing you that your understanding is wrong because it's inconvenient or unpopular. South Africa is a great place overall, but it has it's downsides like some of what you mentioned. But that's no reason to discredit or make it so those downsides don't exist or that they're "not representative" of the country.

Edit. Went back to your comment. You said you don't live in Africa, much less SA. Still, doesn't invalidate the point you made!

Edit 2. I grew up in Africa as a foreigner. It used to be much safer than it is now, unfortunately.

> or someone actually knowledgeable on the subject will correct me

How do you know they are knowledgeable?

I’ve slowly amped up my lying over time. I hit a peak in my life where I never lied - this caused me to never get a job. Always knew the other side was lying too but not exactly how far. Realized it was incredibly deep and terrible lying - accepted lying is a normal part of working in a dysfunctional system and just has to be done. Made my peace with that and moved on.

Lying on the Internet? Ah… sometimes I know what you mean. I’ve written some things out but didn’t follow through. The reason? Why bother? I already wrote it. Why do I need people to engage with it? That - to me - is the fundamental issue. Your need of attention and approval. Creative writing can be a fun endeavor but I don’t need anyone to see my lies and get bad information. Think about that a bit more.

In the rest of my life - I basically never lie (or even deceive or exclude details) excluding a select few questions that I know aren’t worth explaining answers to. Due to this and my upbringing - people can never tell when I’m lying. I think people think I’m lying more often than I am.

I pay the price for not lying by omission. That one - I’d highly recommend doing. I’m about to consider embracing it a bit more because - damn - it’s super annoying since people aren’t used to that level of honesty. Everyone lies so often in many different ways that it’s hard to take someone who is actually honest and real and then not judge them super harshly (because surely they must be excluding the truly horrific shit like everyone else excludes the bad stuff in their life!).

This is extremely common among young teens, who are struggling to get accepted and see lying as a quick workaround. I think of it as a crutch for easing the growing pains, something that is abandoned as one matures because it becomes less gratifying.

Kids have lied in all generations to gain respect, the Internet only makes it easier to lie to strangers. There's a problem underneath when lying stays in adulthood, though.

No, I don't even remember when I lied last time, no matter whether online or IRL, I may skip information I don't wanna reveal or avoid answering, but I try to deliberately lie as little as possible, because that's behavior reserved for children and disgusting people. Honestly I should not be even answering in this thread to encourage liar in his lies.

Some people in comments are saying you are troll for doing this.

I do not understand how this makes you a troll. When you post these comments are you willing to accept defeat when you are wrong? If your answer is yes, you are not a troll.

Commenting on something you have no idea about is not bad per se. In fact, it brings a perspective of an outsider in the discussion.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/09/everybody...

Welcome to the internet. You've figured out yourself that you are a troll.

The answer you are seeking:

Nobody in /r/programming actually knows anything about programming languages or compiler design, there's just a survivor's bias of people using C++, thinking they're better at programming because of it.

Nobody in /r/linux actually knows about kernel or system design, and it's just a bunch of sysadmins circle jerking around that have not a single clue. Everyone that says linux is better will get upvotes, and everyone claiming the opposite (even with founded arguments like the ReactOS guys) get downvotes.

Nobody on qanon/4/8/endchan actually knows anything, because nothing is verifiable that's being trolled in those boards. They are the hyperbole of a self censoring emotional mob that is just aligned through common hate.

Here we are. The internet of deception, where people knowing less are infiltrated to a belief through hate, with opposition and doxxing, and in the beginning through "experts" knowing the "actual truth".

On the internet, nobody can be held accountable. Which also implies that nobody is who they say they are and have to be treated as such.

If you want more details on how Russia operates: "troll factories ghana" will give you some nice documentaries on it. Just don't make the concious bias thinking they're the only ones operating like this.

I wish HN supported flagging users.

I just hope that you don't lie in direct person to person communications in internet. That would be as bad as in real life.

In anonymous comments it's gray area, but when you build some fake identity, then it's plain and basic.

Lying on the internet is so ingrained, it is part of its fabric. There are several core memes based on it ("are you saying someone would post something untruthful on the internet??"). I'm not even lying (much) here. However, truths have also, from time to time, allegedly been posted to the internet. People aren't even very truthful in person, so with anonymity and distance, you have the nuclear bomb of lies on internet. Right now, russia is insisting any factual reporting from Ukraine is deepfakes.. :-(.

Do you really not know anything about these topics or is this post a lie? :)

In case what you're saying is true, props to you for realizing yourself that you're doing something wrong. People stretch the truth sometimes and exaggerate to sound smarter, but in your case it seems to be more than that. You are making up facts (like living in South Africa) that are outright lies. I believe you may need help and should talk to a therapist about this. I may be a sign of something bigger that should be addressed.

I've done somewhat similar in political discussions, just state things as facts which I suspected to be correct but had absolutely no certainty they were correct. Also known as "talking out of my ass". The idea being that somebody would correct me if I was wrong. So basically leveraging people's urge to be right on the Internet to get free & lazy schooling, and feeling halfway guilty about it.

Thanks for coming out, just a reminder that anybody reading about someone else's experience online should do it with a grain of salt.

After being on reddit and 4chan for a long time, I have come to the conclusion that everybody is "Fake and Gay".(expression that is commonly used as a stock comment in response to stories of highly dubious nature or questionable authenticity) on the internet.

Not like you do.

I express opinions, and normally pre-fix them with caveats like "I would expect" or "I feel like" etc... that first example is just an outright fabrication. a bald faced lie.

Why did you get through the thought process, and typing it all out and still think that clicking SEND was a worthy and justified action?

That's really bad, i for one very rarely comment something, with fear of talking something wrong and being confronted by the guy who created the subject i am talking about, i prefer to read and learn until i fell confident enough to talk about it!

Thanks for owning up to this. We all know the internet and HN are full of chancers, but it's still very helpful to see what crafty, well-written BS actually looks like.

And let's hope all this does not stop you from commenting here on topics you know about !

Your post reminds me of researchers that willfully submitted made-up research papers to multiple editors to test their ability to spot bullshit.

Many failed, as the HN hivemind failed to verify your statements.

I like how you accidentally called out the king for being naked.

No, but I think that's better for discussion than the normal state of things, where people behave the same as you they just aren't doing it intentionally and then get defensive when called out.

You're the reason why "the wisdom of the crowds" doesn't work.

Besides, your behavior is not ethical and you could be causing harm to some (gullible) people that followed your advice.

I think the more interesting question is: would less people be doing that, if it weren't incentivized through karma points? If yes, how big would the impact be?

If you look at it in terms of telling the truth it's more helpful.

Are you committing an offense against the truth when you tell a story or role play?

No. I don't lie. But I also never say that I'm always right. That would be arrogant. Nobody has patent on truth.

I don’t do this, and I strongly object on ethical grounds. You have to either not understand the ramifications and consequences of your words, or be a sociopath.

Now, while I do not do this now, I extensively did this on Digg and then reddit way back in the day. That's pretty standard trolling.

>I regularly lie and pretend I know about topics and areas I have zero experience in.

Never lie. This is a tiny book by Sam Harris: https://www.samharris.org/books/lying

Lying never works. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_bear_false_witn...

In fact, soon as you decide to stop lying. You life dramatically improves and then shortly after that it drops again as you discover lies that feel like you're supposed to say them. You dont even think you're lying, call them white lies or whatever you want. You may even find when you stop saying those lies bad things happen to you. A great majority of people do not want to hear the truth, ever, under any circumstances. This is why so many people lie, it's very challenging to live in society and not lie.

This is when you learn how to be silent; say nothing, say you dont know if prompted. A good scientist will always admit when they dont know.

>Does anyone else do this?

I have an opinion about Star Trek. Do I know anything about producing tv shows? No. Is it lying? No.

However, looking at your africa example. This is a lie. You should not do this.

The lie isn't even important in Africa. What is that post really doing? It's about portraying South Africa as a violent and unsafe place. It's a prejudice.

sometimes i log out of my real name account to post some creative fiction or throwaway ideas, but i never cross a line: where someone might base a life decision on my lie

If you take the internet seriously you're doing it wrong.

No. I never do it. I swear on the lives of my alien children.

> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9309170

This thread is very disturbing. It reminds me of that (white) Republican operative who pretended to be black on Twitter to muster support for Trump. He was found out when he forgot to switch accounts one day and his profile pic was that of a bald white guy.

But thanks for telling us. In the future I will refer to people using unverifiable claims about themselves to further an agenda as "Mandatuming". Trolls like you make it impossible to trust people online.

I do this all the time too.

The comments are funny. People calling you a sociopath that needs help - lol. I think hn needs to look in the mirror - 200 points for representing some ideological point - if hn is upvoting like Twitter, maybe it's hn that needs help

how much reddit karma do you have?

I am Batman.

> I live in South Africa in a gated community with 24/7 guard patrols and 12 ft high barbed wire fences.

> I've never stepped foot in the continent of Africa

Wow, you have a problem.

And meanwhile, dang has rate-limited me when I try to only post things I am willing to say in person.

Maybe LinkedIn (where everyone knows who everyone is) is the only place for honest discussion. HN clone with "sign up with LinkedIn" exclusively anyone? But then, maybe some people will hold back their true opinions or lie about things to appease their employers/employees/governments/public etc. Having to change jobs over one of these comments would be no fun.

Maybe like ClubHouse (where you have to be invited by someone else on your real phone number) but where you don't necessarily reveal your full identity to the public... but since some people would know, you can't blatantly lie either... i.e. gives you plausable deniability when you need it but some people still know who you are to prevent you from lying... and then it works kinda like twitter where you can write posts or share links, which has a feed based on upvotes like HN... And you can write arbitarily long posts. Elon Musk should make that maybe?

You are doing God's work.

would someone really do that?

just go on the internet and tell lies?

> I know nothing about IP law

Another lie :) You know that impersonating brands and using names likely to be confused with a trademarked name is largely illegal. Just because one is not a lawyer does not mean one is entirely ignorant of the law.