HACKER Q&A
📣 throwaway971608

Is Apple low-balling me or am I an impostor greedy bastard?


TL;DR — Apple offered me USD $228k average annual total compensation (base + RSU + bonus), which is below the 25th percentile of ICT4-Senior according to Levels FYI (https://www.levels.fyi/company/Apple/salaries/Software-Engineer/ICT4/Canada/). Are they low-balling me or am I being too greedy?

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I am a Software Developer with over twelve (12) years of verifiable work experience as an individual contributor in Canada, US, and LATAM. University drop-out. I started in Web Development (full-stack), then Web Security (back-end and tooling) and, finally, Systems Programming in industries like InfoSec, Web Hosting, Gaming, Marketing, and Internet Services. I worked for two (2) Fortune Global 500 companies and have a passion for distributed systems.

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Hello, HN.

I wonder if you can help me riddle this one out.

I have been doing interviews at dozens of medium and large companies for the last couple of years, mostly because 1) I want to keep my impostor syndrome at bay, 2) I want to practice my English as much as possible, 3) a manager taught me the best time to interview is when you don’t need a job, and 4) LeetCode and take-home exercises are equally fun to me.

Long story short, one of those interviews was at Apple (Canada). It was less technical than I expected, but still challenging, especially the one about Data Privacy and Security, which was the most entertaining interview I have had in years.

Unfortunately, the offer is several thousand dollars below what I expected (↓2x).

I feel like being a university drop-out and/or keeping a Senior Software Developer role for so long without jumping into management may have contributed to the low offer.

I am not white, and I don’t think race or gender had anything to do with it. However, the last time I tried to negotiate the salary, they invited me to a video call and I was the only one with the camera on, which I thought was a bit disrespectful and disingenuous.

Now, you may ask —Why didn’t you ask the (internal) recruiter?—.

Well, I did.

They said that the range for base salaries is limited by the 75th percentile they pay in the city my team is located, which is determined by market rates. Then, paraphrasing, —If we pay you the amount you expect, you’ll have a much higher salary than any of your team mates, and it will make it much more difficult to give you a raise in subsequent years.—.

The answer didn’t make sense to me at all, but I did not have a good come back in English at the moment.

Today, I think, why is it my fault that my team members are also underpaid? Is not that a sign that the company needs to re-evaluate their salaries too? And lastly, why would I worry about future raises if you can’t even pay what I expect today?

What do you think HN community?

  👤 elmerfud Accepted Answer ✓
I think it's more supply and demand. There is a demand for good senior developers but Apple is a prestige company to work for in many circles too. So, they can pay less than other 'top blah blah 500' companies because at the end of the day Apple is more recognized on a resume than the other 495 companies.

There are plenty of people who likely have a similar resume to yours and similar skill set that would be happy to list apple on the resume for a couple of years of time at a slight drop in peak pay.

Also, apple offers stock last I knew anyways, which can be quite attractive in some circumstances.

👤 zaphar
Can you get more elsewhere? I'm not familiar with the market in Canada so I don't have a frame of reference for comparison. But if you've been interviewing you should have an intuition for what you can expect. If your interviewing indicates you can get more at other places, then they are lowballing you.

You are in the comfortable position of being able to walk away so your negotiating position is good as it gets. Apple is probably also in the comfortable position of being able to walk away too. This means that they can probably manage to find folks who are suffering from Imposter Syndrome and will happily take a lowball offer to work at Apple. One effect of that particular malady is that it reduces you ability to walk away from the negotiating table.

👤 Kye
On the one hand, that amount would be life changing for me several times over, so it's hard to look at and say "that's not enough." On the other hand, Apple makes an absurd amount of profit and really should pay everyone from the janitor to the CEO six digits.

Getting hecked over starts with little things. It may feel like a small thing, but you deserve to get what's normal for the position, and it's worth pushing for if you can risk losing the offer.

>> "The answer didn’t make sense to me at all, but I did not have a good come back in English at the moment."

Here you go: "If you can retain me for subsequent years in this market, then you're worth working for even if I have to advocate harder for raises."

👤 Trias11
If this is reasonably acceptable but you think you worth more, accept it and continue looking.

But then you'll have big advantage of FAANG in your resume to boost your income.

If Apple is indeed lowballing you - you'll be able to quickly find out by the virtue of better offers from others.

👤 epc
Is it possible that your understanding of the role is that it is more technical than what they view it as? Just going off your comment that the interview wasn’t as technical as you expected.
👤 sydthrowaway
You need two offers before joining any tech company. Have a good day.
👤 cercatrova
That is lower than average, looking at Levels FYI [0]. People who have half your experience are making that much and more, to my knowledge.

[0] https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Apple,Google,Facebook,Micros...

👤 fancymcpoopoo
yeah dude, it's not possible to be happy with 228k salary. you bring shame to your entire bloodline.
👤 wdb
That's more what they offered me here in London
👤 alexfromapex
That's honestly great, assuming you don't have a degree