HACKER Q&A
📣 baxtr

How to combat propaganda?


Fellow HN reader. I recently talked to a Russian friend living in the West who is married to a Ukrainian.

My friend told me he couldn't talk to his relatives back home anymore. He is sending them videos and images from the war in Ukraine, and nothing won't change their minds and conviction that Ukraine needs to be liberated from the Nazis.

Now I wonder: Is there any clever way to combat Propaganda in such a situation? How can you establish at least doubt in the other person's mind?

EDIT: I didn’t want to discuss what’s right or wrong. I am interested to learn about effective ways / processes to combat propaganda.


  👤 blast Accepted Answer ✓
You need to first notice how propaganda works on you yourself. If you're not aware of that, then you're probably not trying to combat propaganda at all, you're just trying to replace the other side's propaganda with your side's propaganda.

Once you do notice how propaganda works on you yourself, you can start to track little movements of deviation from it. But this looks and feels a lot more like questioning your own beliefs than it does like trying to persuade others of the truth.


👤 zqna
Exposure to and physical experience of different cultures makes it more difficult to ostracise them. Thinking of actually meeting and casual talking of "other" people. The more and longer, the better. Also, important is the capability of rational thinking, which allows to detect the lies and inconsistencies. Not sure how much of it can be taught at school. Some people are predisposed to blindly follow the authority whatever that authority is, hopefully not malicious. Thinking that maybe an empathy should be important too, but no, quite the opposite. The propaganda feeds on the feelings while the critical thought is its biggest enemy.

👤 noodle
> How can you establish at least doubt in the other person's mind?

Someone must be open to this in the first place. You can't change a closed mind, and there are many reasons why a mind might be closed. They kind of have to arrive at their doubt on their own, at least in my personal non-expert opinion. The most you can do is express your opinion in a relatively non judgmental way (because if you're too harsh they won't return to you later to discuss) and be available if they want to discuss.


👤 syntheweave
The traditional method seen in philosophical writing is to not address Plato's cave directly, but rather to present an esoteric puzzle that interested minds can only solve by overcoming their own core beliefs. When facts are laid against other facts directly in a way that decoheres a belief, the tendency is simply to go find a scapegoat that will, if defeated, set things right, which plays into the hands of propagandists who will supply an endless number of such scapegoats to an audience desperately craving such, and willful misinterpretations of media to make it say an opposite meaning. The use of esotericism combats this by presenting a text that is nonsense - presenting easy conclusions contrary to facts - until it is analyzed and deduced, at which point it's too late and the contrary thought has been had.

The core beliefs themselves tend to be set during adolescence, and the will of the individual to hold onto them or let them go involves a confluence of factors since they are often absorbed into identity. While you can present the puzzle, you can't stop people from gripping onto what they have as tightly as possible and sacrificing the rest of their life to do so. It's a strategy that appeals mostly towards development of elite thinking, rather than trying to sway the masses(who will continually look for easy beliefs to latch onto).

For more on the topic of esoteric writing I suggest Arthur Melzer's "Philosophy Between the Lines".


👤 kleer001
A related but more fundamental existential question is "Can you stop of a loved one from self destructing."

And, as sad as it is, I'm afraid the answer is a solid "No." on every level of analysis.


👤 mjreacher
More emphasis on videos and interviews. While it's still possible to dismiss them as also being set up it's a lot easier to dismiss news articles and text interviews as fakes with no physical proof behind them. In general more things that you can verify yourself so it becomes harder to dismiss things as propaganda.

👤 h2odragon
Would they feel safe voicing any other opinion? If not there may not be anything further to say.

👤 andrei_says_
See the work of George Lakoff and specifically his concept of the truth sandwich.

👤 marcusverus
If you want to bring someone around to your position, you need to have an actual conversation.

First of all, you need to listen, with your mouth closed, while the other person explains their position--without being forced to defend it. You can ask probing questions, of course (They think that Ukraine needs to be liberated from the Nazis? Have them elaborate about the Nazi problem.), but avoid becoming adversarial or contrarian. Investigate their beliefs, trace them down to their foundations, and then undermine said foundations. The belief that "Ukraine needs to be liberated from the Nazis" may be based on some article claiming that Zelenski is a Nazi.

Once you understand the foundations of a belief, you're in business. If you're objectively correct, you should be able to provide incontrovertible evidence that you are correct. If your evidence is not acceptable (because, for example, it comes from a source the other guy doesn't trust), then find other proof. If you can't, ask yourself what that means.

After you've undermined one of these foundations, (perhaps, by proving that Zelenski is very unlikely to be a Nazi) remind the other party that their belief that "Ukraine needs to be liberated from the Nazis" was based on this fact, and ask if they still believe it. They will, of course, and they'll present some new justification.

Rinse and repeat.

It goes without saying that this process almost never plays out. It requires that both parties be interested in having the conversation, both parties participate in good faith, and both parties are committed to Truth more than to their on cognitive comfort.

After all, how many hours of your life would you spend in conversation with a Russian relative who wanted to convince you that your worldview is based on lies?


👤 GoToRO
It's not that they don't know the truth.They lived for a very long time believing o lie that now is hard to admit that they were wrong. People don't like to admit that they are / were wrong.

👤 exolymph
You can't control what other people think, so let go of the anxiety.

👤 jl2718
Yes. To see past propaganda, separate in your mind the concepts of a government and the people. A governments and its leaders are to the people, as you are to the earth you walk on: temporary, fickle, selfish, often destructive but ultimately irrelevant.

👤 willcipriano
I'd find something else to talk to my relatives about rather than cutting them off beacuse we disagree on a topic neither of us has any influence over.

👤 evervedww2
As a Chinese, I feel exactly the same way as your friend does.

The Chinese government thinks they can lie however they want to its people and to the outside world, because there are language and internet barriers.

For example, they claimed to be neutral regarding the ongoing war, but they are spreading pro-war misinformation via state owned media, and teaching pro-war ideologies at school.

People now are trying to translate their lies through the big translation movement To expose their evil doings . https://twitter.com/tgtm_official

And it worked, they winded down the pro-war education plan, at least publicly.


👤 0xy
I've noticed lots of commentators who seemingly couldn't point to Ukraine on a map before February have suggested that Ukraine's Nazi links are fabricated, when even mainstream media was reporting this before 2022.

It includes things such as Ukraine's police departments providing operational support to Nazi groups, and the groups' history of arming themselves with heavy weapons including missiles. [1] [2] [3] [4]

Ukraine has a long history of directly supporting these groups. Implying either the Nazi groups don't exist or that they're not intertwined with government is opportunistic historical revisionism.

The West not only ignores the problem, but directly supports the Nazi groups through weapons shipments, propaganda lines and protection from censorship. [5] [6]

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/world/europe/italy-neo-na...

[3] https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/09/04/the...

[4] https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukraines-anti-russia-azov-batt...

[5] https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-ba...

[6] https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1501171543371665408


👤 ComradePhil
It is quite likely that he told YOU that because he knows you would be brainwashed with western propaganda so there's not much he can tell you that will change your mind.

This is a strategy many foreigners have to adopt when living abroad, specially if they live in a country where nation states aren't fully aligned in propaganda matters.

Chinese people have to do this while living in most of the world outside China. Indians and Middle easterns have to do the same for most of the world. Americans have to do it in most of the world, including in Europe, specially if their politics isn't fully aligned with Hollywood liberalism.

There is very little likelyhood that he is totally onboard with US propaganda despite having most friends/family in Russia/Ukraine and himself living in the West. I mean he's exposed to conflicting state propaganda before for sure and knows all states use propaganda for their own benefits. He probably knows how to handle it without causing conflicts in personal relationships so he will say whatever needs to be said to keep the people in their bubble.


👤 bjourne
Make it worth their while to change their mind. Anti-vaxxers can be persuaded to get vaccinated by offering them rewards. Others follow the lead of celebrities they like and respect. It may not work on everyone but it works on the group-level.