I've been doing software work about four years now, first year or so was at a big co. next two were at a series B startup (8 mo. in person the rest remote due to covid).
I took a full-remote job at another startup thinking their processes would be better calibrated and I'm finding being social / building any kind of work relationships being nothing but an uphill battle. I'm not incredibly social outside of work, sure I can go to a bar and meet new people relative to a group of friends and don't necessarily think I have serious social anxiety (more than the average person) but the idea of 80% of accessible work for me (looking at my level of ability / experience / leetcode foo) is sort of freaking depressing.
My growth has without a doubt stalled, I can focus sort of but working from home with an office isn't great and having to pay for a noisy co-working space isn't exactly a "win" either.
I'm in New York currently, sort of decided to hold out while I have a group of friends here / sort of took a risk hoping office culture would sort of come back. Realizing that's likely not looking like a probable outcome at this point and curious what others on HN think about this. Even at the Big Co. I could get lunch with people, found mentorship relatively easily etc. Now, it's this bizarre constant process of scheduling, trying to "leverage" the time of who you're talking to and all feels very effete and robotic. I should also add that if I ever have to start doing meetings in VR I'll willingly just become a lumberjack and chuck my MacBook into the nearest river.
Basically, I'm on the fence in terms of moving into a rural area with cool outdoor things (and lower CoL) since why live in New York without an office. Or stay in NYC for the "network" but what's the point if I'm not super social and if I don't have the chops to really see the comp gains you get working here?
The Future of Work TM is looking pretty bleak - what do you kind folks think?
Cheers!
I've already been working remote for the last ~5 years, and it hasn't killed my network because work wasn't really my primary means of networking, professionally or personally. I networked by attending meetups and conventions. Admittedly, it was more or less easier to get to know people IRL when I worked in corporate offices.
What really put a damper on my networking was COVID. Every social activity I was interested remained closed for a long period of time, and even though I was (am?) a tech meetup host, I couldn't get enough people to show up so I stopped hosting them. Many groups in my area haven't come back or were already in decline a few years before COVID. I do miss the ability to physically hang with other programmers. This idea that Zoom/Discord/Metaverse can replace physicality is bullshit. Certainly not yet, anyway.
The Future of Work as it currently appears isn't really bleak because of remote work itself. Many of us have not only been forced into remote work, but we've had flexibility in our lives removed. Every other discussion at work for the last 2 years has had to be tied to COVID in some way shape or form. Remote work had clear benefits when it represented freedom. Now the political situation across the world has made remote work out to feel more like solitary confinement.
It sounds like you want others to live near you and spend their time doing things for you. That’s fine, but you might not find many people who are willing to do that, especially if they are working to live.
Personally I think the future of work is looking great.
I'm pretty sure I'm getting PIPed this month. Can't really complain, I've barely been pushing code, most days I mindlessly browse slack all day and do no work.
I 100 percent blame it on the pandemic, and WFH.
I was thinking of going into finance or defence where you're still forced to go into an office every day.
Just easier to meet people and do stuff. I haven't used an app in years ( had a very bad experience and I don't feel safe using them ), and aside from that I love going to concerts. Much easier to do if you can ride the train to one vs having to drive 2 hours
Remote work is amazing, for me I have to filter myself very heavily at work. I don't really care for workplace socializing.
We have bars for that.
Remote work is amazing for people who have mobility issues, as well as an array of other disabilities.
What if I want to socialize on my own terms. Forcing me back into the office so you can make small talk isn't fair.
Have you considered Chicago ?
It's the perfect city I'm terms of quality public transit and affordability. I lived on the Northside and never had any problems with crime.
Met my first long term girlfriend too !
What used to be a collaborative effort where we both take responsibility for making things better now feels confrontational because online code review is now often the only interaction we have with others.
It’s crucial to build trust and alignment with your colleagues. Otherwise you end up blaming all your problems — which, in fields like software engineering and site reliability, shower down upon us with the misty subtlety of a firehose — on the people who you only know by their Unix name / commit email / cat themed github avatar.
The die hard “work to live not live to work!” responses, here, don’t seem to be addressing that. It’s a much deeper problem than whether you should make friends in a bar versus by the water cooler.
Working in a team is social and you have to form social bonds. No one is saying they are the only social bonds you should form in your life. If you refuse to form any social bonds at work then you will not be as effective as someone who does.
I don't form organic relationships all that easily. I am not at all relatable to most people and find interfacing with them to be a very mentally costly process, so I am happy that remote significantly cuts down on all that. I also like the need to schedule things far in advance as then I can plan my work around when I also plan to be mentally exhausted.
So remote has improved my network by dramatically reducing the expected cost of maintaining it. A few scheduled meetings/planned weeks in advance lunches over spontaneously running it them and them wanting to have lunch when I have deep work scheduled for that afternoon.
It is also why I focus my network on other cities. The distance makes in person meetings be the kind of thing planned months in advance. It manages itself in an orderly way. I need not try and impose order on it.
What might work for you is to set up a meetup/casual thing where someone gives a presentation on a technology people are mildly interested in, like Tailwind or somesuch. If there's demand for that kind of casual interaction (and I don't doubt there is), people will be falling over themselves to help you.
Personally I really like the work/casual divide in my socialization, where my social interaction and work aren't welded together, where work issues can't pollute your friendships and vice versa. This is especially good if you work at a place that appreciates your work but is very different culturally than you. I worked at an oil/gas company for several years, and while I liked some of the formal processes they had, I'm of a profoundly different culture than they are, despite looking like them.
With your social network and work network split off like this, you'll be much more flexible in both.
Good luck!
I agree that it doesn't look like it's coming back - in fact I'm not sure if my city is coming back (London).
The growth thing doesn't bother me, it's just that the job is now pointless to me. I don't care about shuffling pixels about, I care about actual people in the real world. Card games over lunch, pub at the end of the day, chatting shit, that was the point, the work was just a vehicle to give us the excuse and fund it. We are social animals, there is nothing more.
Something sticks in my mind though, which is that most software developers have a strong preference for just sitting inside. I was one, then I made money and I realised there was a world out there. But some of them just want that forever, and that's fine, it just means I can't work with them any more, that chapter of my life has closed, we part ways and so it goes.
It's like a partner or old friend that you just outgrew.
Eventually I'll give up on HN too I guess.
You have a longer post and I want to make clear I’m only discussing one section here, but your emphasis on new is rubbing me the wrong way.
I’ve been doing software for about 2.5 years as long as you and looked for remote jobs, found a few, but couldn’t land them and was forced into in office roles they would take me. It seems like you are having more of a problem of the default job changing from in office to remote, and how the default isn’t your preferred option. Remote first has been a thing for years now and has worked out as a viable way to run a business
Keep on mind that your perception of what the office life will be is not what it will be. MOST people in IT are enjoying WFH and they will NOT want to be back there in the office with you.
As others mentioned, go to meetup and find a group you can socialize with off-hours. Best thing you can do for yourself as those days are over for many, and there's never going back to full time.
With the pandemic I started drinking a lot more because I was lonely.. The frequent moves, mostly due to visas, the pandemic lockdowns, contributed to the small networks I made in each country shutting down, losing old friends.. I am talking friends, not even business colleagues...
Often I go weeks, without talking to another human besides "No thanks I have my own bag" to the lady at the grocery store.. I am somewhere between outgoing and solitary but needing a group of friends is important. I am 36 years old and I wouldnt choose a different path but if you want to work remote, and live in other countries( there is no way I can afford to live in USA), you should figure out how to stay in just one country you like for a long time(legally). And develop that network. I always manage to date cool girls, fall in love, almost got married last year(also ruined from pandemic lockdowns), but I think having a group of bros/comraderie is detrimental to mental soundness
Badly implemented remote working is bad... (but still better than the office!)
For the record, my non-work social life doesn’t usually cause those problems.
If you want to meet people otherwise you have to get out of your way to travel 1h+ in busy public transport (which already ruins my social mood) to some meetup full of randoms of any background. Most of them desperate guys looking for hookup and that's the case with most socials of this kind.
You could join some fitness classes but then you get an extra bill of £100+ just for the potential to meet people. I've heard of people making friends through hobbies but I really struggle to find 'social' hobbies.
That leaves you with office being the most convenient way of making friends even though it's far from perfect and once you leave the job you rarely meet them.
My network has grown much faster and I've met more interesting people than the old days of in office work and in person meetup, even in NYC.
I think younger people who want to progress and learn a ton through osmosis, and develop their professional networks should be in person.
I think the future needs to be all about flexibility, with well understood trade-offs.
The companies which offer this flexibility will attract the best talent.
(I’m hiring in person in Chicago if you feel like moving. Rails / Hotwire / React / beers on Fridays.)
I've struggled with this too. I was on study career-sabbatical travelling in Europe with my then-girlfriend/partner. She was banned from US entry by Trump exec. order and we came to her home of Australia (I'm from the USA) in March 2020 -- we stayed because it was obvious Trump & fam were treating the pandemic as a way to further profit from dubious science, dividing people & pandering. Down under (Melbourne) we've had some of the most strict quarantine lockdowns of any place in the world -- I like it here and now I can't imagine returning to the USA -- but accepting my network in US is mostly toast. Making new friend during a pandemic is really hard.
The timing for the rapid transition to remote work globally wasn't great. I don't think it will be like this forever (but it might take a decade to sort out). Companies weren't ready, and grey-haired CEO, peter-principal IT leaders & HR departments weren't technically equipped for the transition. Most companies (globally) still relied heavily on email & jira + meetings instead of chat, IT was an expense but not seen as "the core of the business" pre-pandemic. Few companies had transitioned to 'remote-first' & 'async culture' pre-pandemic (mostly only bay area startups do this imho). Async culture(s) suggest remote employees get together 'virtually' for coffee or beer and gives them discussion points - did any of your employers do that? I know most didn't.
Other people have told me you shouldn't go to work to make friends, be mentored, get free sushi lunches, you should go there to work blabla. Also making friends @work is NOT the responsibility of your employer (and imho it is certainly not a priority at a startup who should be product focused!!!) -- unless the company highlights & promises that vibe during the recruiting.
Covid/remote work came during a global period of divisive social misery & wealth inequality creating a lot of cognitive dissonance for anybody paying attention. When you think of "digital social network" which company more than any other 'owns' that space? Facebook. And while I won't put all the blame on Zuck - because I know Russia FSB has a legion of trolls & bot-nets manipulating the platform too. The fact society can't use our Internet's "social network" really failed spectacularly. Facebook and it's related platforms are mentally toxic. FB/meta is algorithmically optimized to make you angry, isolated, pissed off & alienated (just like Fox News) because it suits Zucks & Putin's long term power narrative(s)! Zuck is in my view a fool -- not dumb, but incredibly foolish to have squandered such a responsibility & good-will entrusted to him.
So for this pandemic - as long as meta/facebook is the defacto global "social network", i.e. zuckerberg et. al is the primary party responsible for connecting us 'digitally' with friends, family & peers blabla. yeah we're all sort of isolated & socially fcked mate.
We know now* that Zuck isn't interested in (y)our mental health or making us better. Zuck isn't interested in bringing families together, preventing teen suicide, or even disseminating the truth. Zuck is a horrible person and I would happily kick him in the groin on behalf of humanity if given the opportunity so he could (if only for a moment) share humanities collective pain and perhaps even "feel something" akin to desiring compassion. The pandemic would have been a lot easier (socially) if there was a critical mass alternative to Facebook. I heard Trump launched his own platform today -- maybe there is an opportunity for another alternative which focused on mental health & positive news, and living your best life during the pandemic.
Nah, just kidding .. I don't really wonder how Trump's new social media platform will do that. Trying to finding people online when the primary company which runs the social networks is facebook - consider perhaps it's better to be isolated during the pandemic.
How I cope: Study & learn whatever you want unfettered, humanity has been writing stuff for ~5,000 years now, there's a lot to read (and it's all online woot!!) We live in such a cool age for geeks. You sound technically competent -- it's a shame you don't realize what a hidden blessing this is. I've found a lot of the technical chat rooms on Matrix.org to be 'my people' (it's more like IRC) .. you might look there for whatever online social interaction with people smarter than you. mentoring, etc.
Cheers!
I've never met someone I could remotely call a friend as an employee.
I made a few friends when I was in college, but absolutely none at work.