I recently did some phone screens with another company in my industry, my industry is dominated by Microsoft products (mostly windows based software) but I have always had a seriously hard time digesting Teams.
It makes me bitterly angry when I work with it, the way pop ups work, the way things are (dis)organised, even the way copy/paste doesn’t seem to work the majority of the time.
I said on hacker news recently that I don’t think I can work with that software again, but a potential job offer that appears otherwise interesting had an interview conducted by teams.
Is it ok to send feedback that I don’t really want to work with that software? Is that extremely petty and spoiled?
Every company I've ever worked for (contract or perm), everything has been correlated. If they use shit software, they're wanky about the budget (no you can't have a new keyboard ha ha ha), they have rigid processes (Scrum Master! everyone use this big board of tasks!), HR has a stick up their arse ("have you looked at section 1.7.a of the document surrounding...), etc.
Whereas at the places that are decent, it's like it all just clicks. Tell us what equipment you want, give us reasonable updates on the work you're doing, take sick leave if you're ill, general atmosphere of trust. Go in, get shit done, go to the pub, go home, fuck your wife/husband.
It's like some sort of cancer that everything just infects everything else with mediocrity. I've had zero counterexamples, everything is good or everything is shit, no in-between.
This is probably just a general principle though. Sports teams, friendship groups, companies, whatever. You have to trust each other but also aggressively remove mediocre elements or eventually you're just swimming in a pile of shit.
A. For 2-3 years, you regularly spend 40+ hours a week feeling bitter and angry about the tools you use and the resulting social environment you are immersed in.
B. For 2-3 weeks you spend 5-15 minutes a week embarrassed because a few strangers think you are petty.
Personally, I decided some twenty years ago that I never wanted to work with Microsoft products again, and have since passed on quite a few opportunities because that. My stress levels went down significantly after making that decision, though. Asking to be comfortable with something you spend a majority of your wake time on is not unreasonable.
When I interview, I put a price on every chore, inconvenience and petty indignity a given workplace will expose me to.
Then I subtract that from the salary and see if the offer is still competitive.
They want me to do a bunch of business travel by plane? I hate airports, so travelling once per year is equivalent to a 3% pay cut. They want me to browse the web without an ad blocker? That's about a 20% pay cut. I can't have local admin on my work machine? That's 8%. Join an on call rota that gets between 1 and 3 calls per week? 7%. I gotta take a company-issued phone? 5%.
You don't like Teams - but would you pay $10,000 a year to avoid using it? Because you were offered a job that paid $10,000 more and you rejected it because of Teams, that's what you're doing.
That way, I'm never turning down a job because I'm petty and spoiled. I'm turning down a job because unfortunately, the price wasn't right.
It won't just be Teams. There's Outlook too. And they each have their own calendar that people will use. And where there is the Microsoft stack there will be putty, WindowsN laptops and probably the drive encryption thing that occasionally bricks said laptop.
It might be limited to company broadcasts and similar though. If the dev effort is built on a Unix derivative and irc with Teams on a corporate laptop you can leave in a cupboard most days, not so bad.
Do I wish that we could just use... idk an internal IRC server? Yeah sure, that'd be great.
But Teams allows us to organize meetings and communicate EFFECTIVELY.
Sometimes adaptation is a huge part of this industry, in my opinion. I think that if you dislike Teams, and can not adapt, you may not be effective in this job market unless you free-lance or find some small startup that ... doesn't use any of the modern communication applications.
I said outlier above because I use Teams everyday and would never have thought anyone would dislike it let alone be angered by it. But some of the other comments echo your sentiment so perhaps there is something in my blindspot and I am glad for that.
Personally, I stay far, far away from places where I'd be required to use Windows, Teams, etc., not because I can't stand most of the stuff that Microsoft churns out, but because it's an indicator that the company doesn't give a single fuck about whether or not they're adding unnecessary friction to my job. I want to spend my time and energy doing the job I was hired for, not working around whatever crapware corporate IT decides to foist on me. Without fail, every time I've compromised on this stance, the company has ended up being an absolute dumpster fire.
The reason I suggest this is you don’t know what you don’t know. The company might switch off of Teams tomorrow or perhaps some director doesn’t like it and has a plan for a replacement. Perhaps it opens up a conversation on how you can do it better. And lastly, maybe you’re wrong, or you can find a workaround. This is one of the hardest things I struggle with, but from time to time I’ve formed opinions and then reversed them after learning a new way to do things.
You don't need anybody's permission to reject a job for any reason. Don't let people pressure you into serious commitments. If you don't want to work with Teams for $X, don't do it. You shouldn't care what other people will think of you for not taking a job.
The opinions of people who would judge you for this decision are not worth considering.
I agree with some other respondents that it's probably best not to go into detail if they ask- a simple "I don't think I'm a good fit for your environment at this time" should suffice. I wouldn't mention Teams, specifically, unless they really press for details (they almost never do).
Side note: ditto, Teams irritates the p** out of me on all platforms as well, as do the Android versions of most of the O365 suite.
Software developers are so severely in demand that you can reject a job on whatever you fancy because frankly you can. You have a unique opportunity to make your life as enjoyable as possible and whilst most people don't have the luck of having this much choice over their job happiness you happen to be one of the few privileged people who can so make use of it.
Secondly, I 100% understand where you come from.
I cannot work with Teams either.
In fact I'm a bit like you and actively try to avoid companies which use these softwares:
- SharePoint
- Teams
- Azure
- Azure DevOps
- Atlassian stuff
You can send that feedback, but I doubt it’ll make much difference other than making your reasoning known… unless they’re already seriously considering a change.
Is your anger petty and spoiled? In absolute terms, yes, obviously.
E.g., I regularly saw a guy working at a rental car desk and commented on his always sunny disposition. He said he came to the country* with the promise of an IT job but it was a lie. Now, he can't get out and his boss told him to always smile or he'd be jobless (and thus homeless with a high likelihood of starvation).
Are you Spoiled, Petty? Yes, but many of us are.
Doesn't mean you should take the job. Just be grateful for your circumstances.
*I won't divulge the country. Don't bother guessing.
I would just decline the offer without explanation. If pressed for an explanation, be honest but diplomatic about it.
> Is it ok to reject a job because I don’t like their software?
> Is it ok to send feedback that I don’t really want to work with that software?
On the other hand, if you want to give a reason at all, it's best to articulate something 'appropriate' even if that is not the actual reason.
(I've been forced to spend my days on Teams because of the pandemic and I really don't like it, either, btw)
It's entirely reasonable for a company conducting meetings with outside people to use some kind of wide-spread software, like teams, this software, regardless of your personal opinion, pretty much "just works" and so they save themselves and their interviewees a lot of pain by using it.
I think you should arrange for a conversation with them and talk with them about tools and the software you would be forced to use (and how often/much) and what alternatives are available/acceptable for you to use for the bulk of your work.
Where I am, the systems are running $OS and the official docs talk of $EDITOR, but they have virtualbox and vmware available for you to install, and if linux and vim is your deal, you can go ahead and use that.
It's also perfectly ok to reject a position based on anything at all; the UCC suite they use is a perfectly reasonable reason, considering how much time you'll likely have to spend using it. Hell, I rejected an offer because the office was in an old building and the wooden floors creaked like mad.
However, given the weight of your opinions and the emotional response you have to an environment that doesn't suit your needs, have you thought about starting your own company?
If you have a long enough career is Software Dev, you will almost certainly at some point end of using a software product you personally don't like. Learning to compromise / pick your battles is a career skill like any other.
Apologies if this sounds overly critical, but as a hiring manager, I would consider it a bullet dodged. Drawing hard lines in the sand over small things like this would be a red flag for me.
It's perfectly acceptable to have an intense dislike for a piece of software, and to go so far as to discard potential roles to avoid it. But I think people may think you're a bit weird if you come out and say it. Also, I doubt it'll make any difference (decisions to use Zoom vs Teams usually come from above, and I doubt the hiring manager would feel comfortable telling his manager that they lost a candidate due to a software that the higher-ups chose...)
But yes, I’d avoid saying why. Sadly, because when I argue “if we pick tech X people might leave or not join” no one believes me. Because obviously people won’t say why they don’t take job offers or quit jobs, if that is the reason.
As software engineers, our productivity tools are key to our success, and it's totally reasonable to demand good tools.
A more humane solution would be for the company to ask the interviewee which videoconferencing software they prefer, and accommodate that. Decent-sized companies could easily set up a few computers in a spare room loaded with Zoom, Teams, Skype, 8x8, Webex, etc and have the interviewer use that computer with universal compatibility with the interviewees' application of choice
I've never seen this happen, however.
It really is such a painful experience all in all, and so hostile to user experience, that I cannot do it again. And it's only gotten worse... and will continue to get worse - because the order of priority is microsoft -> your company -> you.
So the answer is YES. Tell them you don't use MS products and that it's not a fit.
Teams made me bitterly angry too, and it really doesn't have to be that way! Work somewhere with great tools, and you'll have much better chances of also working with great people.
MS Teams is not perfect but it's not that bad either. I have used Teams, Slack, even Discord a little bit. I don't think anyone of them is above average.
If you have 6 months saved up and already have a job, no rush to get a new one.
If your 3 months behind on rent, then take whatever job regardless of the stack.
Teams is tolerable. It would be silly to pass up an otherwise good opportunity over it
Look at the job on the whole-- consider the pay, the work you'd be doing, your place in the organization, etc.
In the grand scheme of things, the software they use is a tiny part of it, and one you might even be able to change from the inside.
Also, Microsoft for all it's fault is pretty good at writing software. Maybe you're looking at it incorrectly. Or maybe they'll have a nice upgrade soon.
I wouldn't turn down an otherwise good job because of it. When the economy inevitably zig-zags (as it always does) and jobs are harder to come by, you might remember this moment either happily or not so happily.
I've quit three jobs at this point because they made me use software I don't like.
I'm just about to go back to a company that 15 years ago wouldn't use the software I wanted. So, I left for another company that did. Now a days it's industry standard and the whole department there works solely in that software. And thanks to the pandemic we're all remote and I don't have to move. AND they're hiring for my exact position. I'm so excited.
2. Make sure you’re not just looking for excuses to cover up insecurity or imposter syndrome.
3. Do not tell them (because of 1).
I hate Teams also but honestly if you are hung up on this, I wouldn't want to hire you anyway.
And teams is kind of annoying for those reasons and more, although for me it is a tolerable pain.
But you also have to weigh up whether the pros of the role outweigh that con as well, otherwise you might be doing yourself a disservice by focusing on that one issue.
Is using Teams more painful than the positive side of this gig, proportional to its importance to your life?
(It is also ok to reject a candidate for any reason, or even without one.)
But your mileage will vary. You do you.
I complain all the time about C and UNIX, yet it might come as a surprise that I have used many flavours of commercial UNIXes since 1993, and used C more times that I care to count.
There is more to a job than whatever tooling they might be using.
I previously used Skype for Remote work and I must say that Teams are pretty decent.
All those integrations - Outlook invitation + accept button + instantly it being in Calendar on Teams + reminder about meetings.
I like it.
OTOH if you feel that strong about it how do a bunch of random strangers get to invalidate your feelings? The strong emotions that makes you decline a job is a good indicatior that you give a fuck. Try to move in that direction and you may find motivation and purpose.
Seems legit to say no.