HACKER Q&A
📣 tempsy

Is the Tech Bubble Crashing?


I’m looking in awe of the total carnage in a lot of tech stocks over the past year or so, and accelerating in the last few weeks/months.

While the FAANGs have so far held up ok (ex-Netflix), there’s a lot of small or mid cap tech stocks that are down 50% or more in just a few weeks. ARKK and related ETFs are down more than 50% since Feb 2021 highs.

I understand a lot of this is due to the Fed’s new hawkish stance which disproportionately impacts high p/e stocks like many public tech companies due to rising rates and asset purchase tapering.

But how long is this trend away from tech going to last?


  👤 dragontamer Accepted Answer ✓
It's the nature of future earnings vs current earnings and how inflation changes that.

Let's say you have two companies: 'Established' that makes $100 million/year, and 'Growth' that will make $200 million / year in 10 years, but $0 / year today.

Let's say both of these facts are 100% certain and that all market participants agree. Finally, we assume all market participants work off of a 20 year investment cycle just to keep things simple.

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With 0% inflation, both companies are equal over the 20 year lifecycle.

However, with 5%/year inflation, the established company comes out far ahead.

The $200 million made in year 10 by Growth is only with $122 million (year 1 dollars).

So you can see, future money is less valuable in an inflationary environment. In contrast, the $100 million made by Established is worth $160 million in year 10.

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Once we account for inflation, the growth strategy fails. Alternatively, growth strategy only works in low inflation environments.

In high inflation environments, established sources of money and established real estate / factories is better. The growth company promises to buy a factory in the future, but we all know inflation is making that factory more and more expensive, and it's future promise of future money is getting less valuable.


👤 rossdavidh
There are at least two possible scenarios:

1) inflation continues to rise, keeping the pressure on the Fed to raise interest rates. This being so, entities like retirement funds that must have some yield, now have non-risky options to get it. They rotate out of tech stocks, which are generally considered higher risk, higher yield.

2) crash in stocks causes the Fed to lose courage, they don't raise interest rates after all. Now Treasury bills and other low-risk options are too low yield, not even keeping up with inflation. Whether they are confident in the tech stocks or not, entities that must find yield somewhere will invest in them because "lower-risk" options are no longer options, as they are guaranteed to lose money on an inflation-adjusted scale. This means tech stocks go back up, even if nobody much believes in them.

Whether or not the Fed (and European Central Bank and other similar entities worldwide) are more afraid of inflation or of stock prices crashing, is not a thing I can tell you. But those are, I think, the two scenarios.


👤 binarynate
I don't think there's a tech bubble (outside of crypto I mean—that's an entirely different story). Tech (and software specifically) is enormously value creative, and I think it would be very difficult to overvalue that. I think it's normal for market valuations to fluctuate in the short term, but in the long term, I expect tech companies to continue providing enormous value and for markets to continue valuing their stocks accordingly.

👤 ghostoftiber
I think you're on the wrong perspective. If you look at the 5 year: https://www.google.com/finance/quote/.IXIC:INDEXNASDAQ?sa=X&...

Sure, there's a downturn and it's related to COVID and the US printing money, but overall there's not that much of a downturn. Will it continue? Who knows. Is it tech or is it more of a general downturn in the market? It's definitely not exclusive to tech.


👤 Nextgrid
I think a big problem is that a lot of companies either make their money on “engagement” aka monetising user attention via advertising or providing service to companies who do that. The value of the entire system depends on whether advertisers believe their ads are working - if they stop pouring money into it the entire system collapses.

I believe advertising has reached a peak and has been declining for a while and we’re finally seeing the downstream effects of that.


👤 vmception
For me, "tech bubble crashing" indicators would come from level of investment into new ideas. Right now, SPACs purchase newly incorporated startups. That's going to stop. VC capital is going to get more expensive, which means that the conditions are going to become much stricter before investment. The revenue multiples for future rounds will become much lower.

The FAANG behemoths on the other hand have ad based revenue that isn't going to dip - at least from this aspect of the macroeconomic environment. Other things will crater that, if those things are successful on the public policy side.

FAANG traders likely will take lower price:equity ratios so the shares will trade lower.


👤 rvz
Most likely for some but this was a long needed correction and this is the start of the downfall of many stocks.

For example, Cloudflare ($NET). More than 58% down from its all time high, even before the Fed announcing their interest rate hikes. In the long term, it will possibly reach its all time high again, but needs to correct first before that. Some other stocks many never reach their highs again.

Now it should be easy to agree that this was indeed an obvious sell signal [0] despite many at the time telling you to buy.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29355360


👤 davidhariri
> But how long is this trend away from tech going to last?

Nobody knows. It’s a non-answer, but the only truthful one.


👤 JakeAl
You can't exactly use tech stocks as a measure of investment as stock market performance is a measurement of trading and not tech investment. The major markets (NASDAQ, SP500, DJIA) are all manipulated/exploited by people who control the majority of the shares/price and are largely disconnected from actual company performance. Hence the "overvalued" tag that is often thrown around. Stock value does boost a company's market cap which does increase their credit limit allowing them to borrow more money to do bigger things though, which is important. But if they don't deliver and can't increase their value based on performance, it's just a ponzi scheme with regard to stock price.

Having said that, the Fed does also boost or squelch the ability of banks to lend to companies/their ability to increase performance not backed by actual profits and expenses (P/E). If you're an investor you look at P/E and the value of products. If you are a trader you look at stock price/performance almost exclusively. Traders trade both directions at all times (hedging long positions). Investors only play long positions. VCs seek to empower companies with potential.


👤 azth
It's the nature of having an economy built on usury. When usury rates were low, people invested in tech that actually changed the world (for the better or worse is a separate discussion). Now that the rates are going back up, people are tempted by parasitic immoral behavior that is lending money with usury.

👤 nilsbunger
No one knows for sure. A popular view is:

1) the drop starts because the fed starts to withdraw liquidity...

2) the market will trade sideways while the fed unwinds its balance sheet...

3) Once the market drops sufficiently far (30%+), or a recession is induced, the fed will blink and inject liquidity again ...

4) Causing the next wave of growth.


👤 JCM9
Different companies will fair very differently. Those that have revenue and are (or in a path to being) profitable should be fine. Valuations might take a hit but the companies will be fine.

Those that have crazy valuations but no clear sign of turning enough profit to remotely justify that valuation are going to have a rough few years ahead. There’s a lot that will need to be washed out of the system before things reset and the cycle starts again.


👤 tootie
There's a deflation of the asset bubble going on. Anyone compensated in options or RSUs is probably gnashing their teeth a bit but they're still pretty rich. And we may see a moderate cooling in the VC space. But nothing to indicate that business is actually slowing down at all. Quite the opposite. Valuations and P/E ratios have been sky high due to Fed actions but revenues are still pretty great.

👤 mupuff1234
I think we're gonna see valuations go back to pre-covid valuations, basically back to "normal".

The "Growth Bubble" will burst, and those companies will shrink back to valuations that are not completely detached from reality (which in some cases will be 0).

FAANGs will still be money printing machines, the same as they've been for the last decade - no big worry there, just a slight correction (10-20%).


👤 streetcat1
So QQQ was 100 at 2016. Went to 400 in 2021. Should be back to 200 (or less) and still be fairly valued.

But "Crashing" is point of view. I.e. if you short the market (a seller), the market is actually up. I.e. you should not try to time the market but time the DIRECTION of the market.

Also, the Fed is not hawkish, if it could it would not raise rate.


👤 Findeton
Taking into consideration R&D, Facebook/Meta is at around PER 15. If you don't do that, it's PER 21, which is high but not crazy high. From the rest of the FAANG, maybe Google is not too overpriced. The rest are severely overpriced.

I'd rather own an OIL company at 3x FCF than Netflix or anything like that.


👤 bick_nyers
If you have to ask the question if something is crashing, then I believe the answer is no. Faltering? Sure. Crashing? I seriously doubt it. Are we due for a crash? Probably. Am I about to go stake money on it crashing? Nope.

👤 aleister_777
This is the natural reaction to the implementation of various fiscal policies by the US. This sort of flat and reduced market is historically consistent.

When the policies swing back, so will the market.


👤 newbamboo
Time to buy. Buy buy buy!

👤 RedditKon
12:30 PM EST - yes 4:00 PM EST - no

👤 shtopointo
just course correcting