HACKER Q&A
📣 baron816

Does the rest of the world realize just how much money SWEs can make?


I've seen some articles lately taking about how software engineers make upwards of $125K in the US. That's off by about an order of magnitude.

It's really not that uncommon to see software engineers in the US with 3-5 years of experience making >$300K--about what a doctor would make, except without having to go to school for 12 years to do so.

It's kind of unfathomable why someone might choose a career in investment banking, or management consulting, or any other engineering profession, which might require very long hours, extensive certifications, hostile work environments, etc. over a career as a software engineer or product manager. That is, unless they don't realize they can make at least as much or more in tech.


  👤 f0e4c2f7 Accepted Answer ✓
No. People do not understand. I try to explain it all the time and can never seem to get it across.

I used to work at a company that had a hiring pipeline that took people with zero skills and trained them up to high paid tech workers in a few short years.

It haunts me I can't convince more people to pursue this path.


👤 rl1987
Outside certain very expensive places software developers typically don't make six figure yearly amounts. Good luck trying to make over 0.3M USD with 3-5 years of experience in Europe or Asia. Besides, not everyone can learn programming at a professional level, just like not everyone can learn how to be professional doctor, artist or manager.

👤 vidanay
> That's off by about an order of magnitude.

I think you don't understand what an order of magnitude means.


👤 stocktech
The majority of SWEs are not making 300k+. Can you? Sure, but 80% of people are making 125-200k in average COL areas.

👤 jelliclesfarm
Perhaps it has to do with aptitude and education and experience. Not everyone can be a SWE just like not everyone can be an artist or an athlete.

Also..maybe it’s not always about the money. I also find it rather charming that you think a SWE would not have to deal with long hours or certifications or hostile work environment.


👤 YEwSdObPQT
Not everyone wishes to sit in front of a computer screen for sometimes 16 hours a day trying to work out why some race condition in a monolith application is affecting database performance and bringing the whole application to a grinding halt when someone click "upload report".

Also most Software Engineers outside of the US don't make that much money either. I've been working for about a decade and if I don't work as a consultant getting high five figures in the UK is difficult outside of London. The UK pays better than many other countries, but not nearly as well as the US.

That combined with working with people that are short-sighted, lazy or are unwilling to learn anything beyond basics leads to frustration, burn-out and depression when you want to produce something that is moderately decent.

Also the job has almost no prestige to it. Many people have no conception of it and even if they do it is usually a poor one thanks to decades of shoddy software (and the churn related to it) being pushed into their work and/or personal lives.


👤 DanielVZ
The crazy part i think is that this is the only profession where there's a high possibility of sucess for self taughts. I'm a 3YOE self taught SWE and I'm earning double the ammount a new grad doctor earns in my country only by self studying for 2 years for free.

And I'm currently receiving offers for double the salary for remote work with startups in the US.

What's even crazier is that i still have a great work life balance, work from home and the culture is ten times better than what I've seen on other industries in my country.

I can't think of an equivalent industry for self taughts or dropouts.


👤 crate_barre
Lol, you must live in a small little world. Finance has been and still clears much more than software devs on average. Along with that, many other professions have way more longevity (you aren’t considered old at 35, you are considered young). It’s a dumb industry, it better pay somewhat okay.

👤 analog31
It's unfathomable to most people. It's also invisible to most people.

I've thought about it quite a lot throughout my career. I'm an avid programmer, but have not held a programming job per se. In my view it's not a slam dunk that anybody can make it in programming. I work alongside programmers. I see what they do all day. To me, it's easy but boring. I follow HN. I think you either have to figure out a way to make it exciting for yourself, or have a personality that can tolerate sheer boredom without burning out quickly.

I can make programming exciting for myself when it's in the service of something else that I'm interested in (like math and physics), but not as an end unto itself.

I've explained it to my kids, and they can grasp what I'm talking about, but neither of them is motivated by it.

Without a credible prospect of becoming a programmer myself, it becomes basically invisible to me, like living in a poor country that borders on a rich country. Unless you can actually move across the border, there's no reason to fret about the disparity.

It's interesting to look at the same question from a cost perspective: How can you control the cost of programming? On a personal level, I use software, but it's all free. At my job, I'm self sufficient for the programming needed to support my own job, and the programming department is like that rich country across the border.


👤 aphistic
It does depend on where in the US you are or how your company handles remote compensation. Bay area, techtropolii, and other high tech areas might pay that but there are large parts of the US where a majority of SWEs make less than $100k. FAANG is a small part of the SWE jobs available in the US.

👤 4WIW
, and so are doctors, and bankers, and some education administrators, and high-ranking public servants, and even some university professors,and the list goes on.

There is a multi-year process of training and selection. You need to take risks and invest and learn to bend your mind in certain ways. Some people cannot bear this, or just bored out of their minds and cannot continue and get back to living their "normal" lives with less risk of depression or mental breakdown.

Those who survive, make decent money, and some even more than decent money.

So what's wrong with this picture?


👤 abhaynayar
Largely depends on how old you are. Most younger people who aren't pursuing SWE still know how lucrative it is. Less so with older people.

As for why it is unfathomable why someone might choose another career: we don't realize the work SWEs do is not that easy. We are always surrounded by nerdy SWE types, so we don't realize how averse most people are to programming in general.

I have tried helping some friends get into tech by spoon-feeding them all I know about the industry, but they just don't want to code.


👤 2OEH8eoCRo0
I sometimes wonder if it's a bubble. Those salaries only make sense because of the unfathomable profit these businesses make. What happens when they're broken up or regulated?

👤 alksjdalkj
> It's kind of unfathomable why someone might choose a career in investment banking, or management consulting, or any other engineering profession, which might require very long hours, extensive certifications, hostile work environments, etc. over a career as a software engineer or product manager. That is, unless they don't realize they can make at least as much or more in tech.

...or, they just don't want to be a software engineer or product manager?


👤 quaffapint
In the US midatlantic - $125k is high avg for 3-5 SWE. It's gone up a little recently, but very little. Around me there are sales people and investment bankers with around the same or less experience than me and they are making much more money for about the same amount of work. If you want to make the $$$ outside of a few areas in the US, those are the things to get into.

👤 disambiguation
I think this is the sum of a few factors.

1. you. you are likely successful and in a bubble near other successful people giving the perception of $300k being common. Let's be generous and say there are 1M SWEs in the USA, avg. salary is $150k and 1% of them make >$300k. That's 10k total people. It's hard to find concrete data, but it's also hard to imagine the proportions being more generous than that.

2. stocks. a large part of total comp -- up until recently they were at ATH's. This won't last forever.

3. recency bias. SWE is still a relatively young profession. I'm not convinced we'll be as hot or trendy or well payed 5-10 years from now as the labor supply grow and automation continues to take over.

Overall I'm not convinced this field is as solid of a bet as it once was -- at least relative to other fields.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0-SXS6zdEQ&t=9099s


👤 tkiolp4
Just in the US. The second place that pays swes good money is Europe… and in the majority of western european countries it’s not easy to earn more than 90K Eur gross per year. The average is probably around 60K, which is not bad but definitely far away from US salaries.

👤 fullshark
No, and some SWEs don't realize how much they are getting paid compared to other fields, and how extraordinary this all is. Compare your salaries to doctors/lawyers (the traditionally highest paid labor class) for some perspective.

👤 nnoitra
US isn't the entire world. Yes, software engineers make a lot of money in the US but equally trained people make just as much money in the US. Why don't you examine how much your ophtalmologist makes without aging out at 28.

👤 kojeovo
> It's really not that uncommon to see software engineers in the US with 3-5 years of experience making >$300K

This is really only the case at the top tech companies and you have to bust your ass to get in. Most software jobs are not that.


👤 e-pelaza
Yes, some of us do realize, that's why I, someone from a third world country (Madagascar), try do get in, hoping for better pay. Covid also changed the game rules and made working from home a real option, opening even more door to work from anywhere in the world. I'm a now learning form university courses that are open online, 2 from UC Berkeley and 1 from University of Helsinki. Anyone wanting to hire/train someone, we can chat about it.

👤 csdvrx
Actually yes they do, there's even a funny term coming back in fashion on a few places like 4chan to express than when talking about people who live in the EU: Europoors

👤 hellisothers
People have no idea, even in the Bay Area. I was recently hanging out with (non-tech) friends and one asked if I’d ever considered working at Facebook, I said morals aside the salary of X (based on info from friends interviewing) would be tempting and the room went silent. I did a lot of walking back and “well I don’t make that much, omg let’s talk about something else quick…” but at the end of the day it’s not far off.

👤 dpeck
Most software engineers don’t know how much software engineers can make. And I’m not not just talking about at big tech companies.

It’s a matter of finding the companies (and divisions within those companies) that have realized software is a money making system and are willing to put dollars into the machine. The industry is much less relevant than it was just 5 years ago.


👤 soueuls
It’s even worse when you throw remote job into the mix.

I am currently traveling the world and doing programming as a freelancer at the same time. My daily salary is 3 times the monthly salary of where I am currently living.

I have no idea how gouvernements are going to regulate this in the future but it’s insane.


👤 b_u_n_n_y
I’m stuck on about £30k in the UK. And that’s working for an agency

👤 gremlinsinc
Laravel dev for 10 years...can you please direct me to the 200k figure income companies....

👤 morninglight
Where is malpractice insurance for software engineers.

I'm losing faith in the legal profession.


👤 zuhayeer
Lot of informational asymmetry, where people simply don’t know what compensation packages look like across tech even for non-tech roles. We’re trying to shed more light on this information with https://levels.fyi

Noticing a lot of career switches where people who started off in one career are now getting into tech by targeting different roles like Sales, Product Management, and Marketing. This is starting to become more commonplace and will be interesting to see how it continues to pan out. Generally it seems tech is still talent side constrained, and companies’ competitive advantage is to find new ways to up-skill and hire new talent from outside of the industry / college grads.


👤 skyde
no company will pay you more than 200k in a city with low cost of living … But if we are talking california or new-york yes 300k+ is common

👤 tennisflyi
300K where?