Are there any 4K “dumb” televisions?
With news like [1][2], and problems I’ve had in the past, I would like a TV with a modern resolution, but just inputs and a tuner, no “smart” features. Does anything like this exist?
[1] https://hackaday.com/2021/11/29/samsung-bricks-smart-tvs/
[2] https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/10/22773073/vizio-acr-advertising-inscape-data-privacy-q3-2021
All TV's are dumb tv's if you only use them as an external display/monitor and don't connect them to the net. I have a dedicated computer for a media center and just use HDMI1 input on the TV. Never enter menus. Never update the OS. Never agree to anything. Never let the TV "phone home." Never set up wifi. Never connect a CAT5 to it. Set the input using the remote and forget it. Treat it as a dumb monitor. Computer is connected to the net, TV is not and has no way to access it.
Summing up the main options and linking to some comments that mentioned them:
* extra-large gaming monitors, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29383077
* Sceptre brand TVs (they can be purchased from Walmart) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29383298
* Projectors maybe, but 4k projectors are very expensive. (On the other hand, 1080p projectors look great in my opinion.)
* Most big brands such as LG, Samsung, etc. have "commercial displays" or "digital signage" that are dumb or at least have fewer problematic features. One kind you'll see is marketed for putting in hotel or hospital rooms. Another kind is marketed for displaying at e.g. a bar/restaurant, building lobby, etc.
One thing people haven't mentioned is that there are some non-smart televisions available that are marketed as extra large gaming monitors.
For example, there's the Alienware 55" OLED Gaming Monitor and the ASUS ROG Swift PG65UQ that's 65".
Depends a lot on country. I think the US has more options than EU (but I might be wrong...). Framework had a blog post (https://frame.work/blog/in-defense-of-dumb-tvs) about this exact thing and NEC digital signage displays are an option or Iiyama (https://iiyama.com/) makes 55,60 inch 4K displays that are non smart.
I was looking for something similar and it's frustrating to see you can pick up a 65inch Samsung Q90A for about $2500-$3000 but a similarly sized comercial display will cost significantly more and use significantly more power (at least as far as I've seen, I might be wrong on this one). Comercial displays are rated for 16/24 or 24/24 usage, so they should, in theory, last significantly longer.
As far as my search went, I ended up going with a Dell U4320Q (43inch monitor) instead. It cost a bit more than the equivalent Samsung Q90A display, but it does have a USB C port with power delivery support, I can keep my desktop and laptop plugged in and it works/looks great. It also doesn't have Smart features, it's just a display. Depending on country you might be able to get some cashback on it and make it even more competitive price wise and the stand + warranty are pretty solid.
Hope this helps!
Seems like this would be a good use case for a "TV Honeypot" that would intercept phone-homes, recognize the model, imitate whatever jank rpc is needed to keep the unit happy, and dump all telemetry to /dev/null.
Just don't connect it to the network or agree to any of the license clickthroughs, it can't do things behind your back then. HDMI and the RF tuner can still work fine.
I don't buy TVs anymore, I buy monitors.
There's no reason to own a television with a shitty computer built-in, when I can just buy a screen and plug it into my actually good computer.
Right now I have a 27" ThinkVision display and a pair of studio monitors, with both laptop and Switch connected to it. Media comes over the computer (who even buys cable in 2021 anyway?), audio patches into the display over USB-C/HDMI and out to the speakers.
I'm moving soon and I'll probably spring for a 30+" 4K for the living room at some point, and look into a receiver and theatre speakers but honestly I don't see the point.
You do pay a bit more for the display-per-inch, but the reason those "4K smart TVs" are so cheap is all the adware money, so they're only "cheap" in the way that Facebook is "free".
I was asking myself the same question seeing all the recent TV deals. I came to the conclusion it was best to ignore the deals and look at TVs when I can afford to do some in depth research as to which ones have the least intrusive "smart" functionality (eg quick startup to same hdmi input source, rarely needing to interact with the useless menus, and behaves when given a zero-access wifi network or even better with the wifi module removed).
If you're looking for something smaller I'm using a 43 inch 4K monitor, LG 43UD79 / 43MU79, that was around $450. I'm using it as a monitor, but my backup plan was to use it as a TV if I didn't like it as a monitor. It even comes with a simple remote that is better than common TV remotes because it leaves out all the superfluous buttons (its primary up/downs are volume/brightness). They've since discontinued it and the new model is up at $700 though.
Yes, my TV is an LG 55" 4k dumb tv, and I love it. [1]
As I posted in another thread [2] a few days ago:
In Canada, LG's Business site has tvs branded as "Commercial Lite" that are all dumb, and work great. I have a 55" 4k and I enjoy its simple features and minimal remote-control. The only downsides IMO are that it only has two HDMI inputs and it doesn't do HDR. But for $1000 CAD four years ago, I'm still happy with it! I bought mine from CanadaComputers in-store. I don't know if it's as easy to get one nowadays, and I don't know if/how they sell them in the US.
[1] https://www.lg.com/ca_en/business/commercial-lite
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29343338
It's a kind of hackey way of handling this, but what I do is open up the TVs and removing whatever components are required for the WiFi to work.
Sometimes you can just remove the network card easily, but usually the easiest thing to do is find and break the antenna. It's inelegant, and of course the smart features are still there, but it at least reduces or eliminates the tracking crap.
I seem to recall hearing that certain Google TV’s could be set to dumb mode?
Ah, here it is: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/the-best-feature-of-...
> The new Google TV is a fine smart TV interface, but when it gets integrated into some TV sets later this year, its best feature might be that you can turn it off. A report from 9to5Google details an upcoming "Basic TV" mode that will be built into Google TV, which turns off just about all the smart TV features. Right now, Google TV is only available in the new Chromecast, but Google TV will be built into upcoming TVs from Sony and TCL. Basic mode means we'll get smart TVs with a "dumb TV" mode.
> ...
> When the new feature rolls out, you'll be asked to choose between "Basic TV" or "Google TV" at setup. 9to5Google says that with basic mode, "almost everything is stripped, leaving users with just HDMI inputs and Live TV if they have an antenna plugged directly into the TV. Casting support, too, is dropped." The UI notes that you'll be turning off all apps, the Google Assistant, and personalized recommendations.
Sceptre has been my favorite. They're not the most-premium brand, but I've been buying them for years for home TVs and they're decent. They do make Android TV models, but they also continue to make non-smart models with 4K and other basic AV bells and whistles: https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm...
They are not without their drawbacks but you can get an excellent picture quality 4K home theater projector that has none of the ‘smart’ tv features.
I've got one, but it's not very good build or panel quality, just a random Chinese brand. It was in the first batch of 4k models, before all the bonus money from spyware pushed dumb displays out of the consumer tv segment.
Your best bet now is to get an industrial display or find a generic driver board that is compatible with the panel from a smart TV and then DIY a smart TV into a dumb one.
On the DIY perks youtube channel, the host builds a water cooled backlight for a 4k panel in order to make an outdoor-capable TV, and he uses one of those generic driver boards for it.
You can put those into a special HDMI dumb screen mode using the service remote.
My Sony Bravia is just a couple years old and I just turned off the wifi and watch broadcast and drive it with a mac mini.
I suppose newer systems would use the LAN to update drivers and take over smart functions. If in the US, go by Best Buy and ask them for the remote for the display tv you like and see that it lets you kill internet function. Also that there aren't any always-on apps (or if there are, the menus let you disable them).
I didn't see this mentioned so apologies if it has, but the latest version of Google TV has a 'dumb' mode that has no external services as an option on first setup. There are TVs releasing with Google TV (Android 12) soon.
4K dumb projectors are easy to find. They're not for every room but can give you a great home cinema result while still working for normal TV and games.
Swedx [1] has really nice, affordable products. I've bought about 5 of them over the last few years.
All of their screens come in a "TV version" with a tuner, and a "monitor version" without one, but are otherwise identical.
The speakers are pretty crappy, but that's to be expected.
(European company, so not sure where they ship to outside the EU)
[1] https://www.swedx.com
Modern Sony Bravia TV’s ask whether you want a “Basic TV” or a “Google TV” when you first set them up.
Hitachi makes some, I have one and it has been great. Before I found their dumb model I was looking at broadcast monitors which were much more expensive and didn't have TV tuning ability or speakers but checked all of the boxes that I wanted with a screen.
I have a few years old Sony XBR model. I had to factory reset it a few months ago due to it randomly restarting itself after a system update. I just never connected it to the Internet and use an AppleTV and Xbox for streaming and gaming.
Is anyone just opting for a projector instead? How does that work
It is a bit ridiculous that TVs have to be a computer with internet access to sell nowadays, but that’s coming to just about every household appliance.
Not that I know of, there are however 4K 'digital signage' displays which are an industrial product. They are the monitors you see in kiosks etc. Be prepared to pay a pretty penny for them however. The last time I checked a 65" digital signage display was roughly 5x the cost of a similarly sized television.
Also note they may have an HDMI implementation that is 'cheap' and doesn't implement the CLEC protocols or HDCP so you may have to jump through hoops to drive them from a PC with commercial content.
One thing that I end up relying on fairly often as part of my day job is Hotel Mode - https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Category:Hotel_Mode - most likely it will be of use to a lot of you who just want to lock the set to one particular input and have it function as a dumb monitor.
Give me a shout if anyone needs a hand accessing it - or wants to know what some of the set specific features are.
For those who don't require 4K, I was able to find a 1080p "dumb" TV from the Insignia brand at Best Buy. All their 4K models are smart though, unfortunately.
Stuff is scary. I feel like at some point we'll ask same question but for HDMI etc cables..
No, they no longer exist. TV manufacturers have correctly determined that data mining is actually far more profitable than just selling panels. It's gone from smart TVs being a value added feature to being something that subsidizes the cost of the display itself to the consumer through advertising. There's a huge race now to win the smart TV OS market that is driving companies like Roku to massive valuations based on that.
Telefunken as brand is a safe bet if you can find in stores close to you.
They are mostly built in Turkey now, but they are pretty decent and don't include bloatware
This question comes up again and again and the sad answer is still:
Buy the best TV for the money (which will be smart), then don’t connect it to the internet. It will be better and so much cheaper than trying to get a dumb TV that you could get a new one if - against all odds - its dormant smart features become an issue. And you’ll likely have money to spare.
Sure, if you are paranoid you can’t be sure it doesn’t connect to open Wi-Fi or even contains it’s own radio hardware - but let’s face it, so could a “dumb” screen. If you are extremely cautious you can likely disable radio hardware via hidden service menus or worst case physically.
Computer screens or commercial screens sadly don’t offer the processing you want for broadcast TV (Which these days is a lot a about upscaling and smoothing poor video). If you watch high quality streaming you’ll want the latest HDR standards.
So your best bet for a dumb tv is a smart one without internet and just ignore that it connects to the neighbors phone via BT, shows an ad (that it shipped with), or pesters you about letting it connect to the internet.
anyone remember the XMBC project from twenty years ago? Rooting Xboxes and replacing the OS with a slick custom media player OS?
I find it a little remarkable that there isn't a similar "scene" built around lobotomizing smart TVs. The desire is obviously there, and surely rooting Android isn't terribly hard. The OS's for smart TVs are barely maintained.
Bought 55" Sceptre about 2 years ago, still works extremely well. Sceptre was the only "dumb" tv maker that I could find https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm.... Some outdoor tv makers provide some but not a decent indoor viewing experience. Downside with Sceptre is their stock on the website is out at the moment. I've seen Walmart's occasionally carry them dependent on size your looking for in stores just depends on what part of country your in just keep your eyes out. Buyer beware though, you will want to pickup a sound bar/ set of speakers as their built in ones are tinny , but is usable.
Not going to mention the other options as appears comments have covered them, good luck
How about the shitty Sceptre specials from Walmart?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-50-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-U5...
> Let's you view your pictures as a slideshow or listen to your favorite music via the USB port. Just insert your flash drive into the USB port for the ultimate entertainment.
I'm pretty sure this is the one I have. But even if it's not, the fact they're advertising playing music via USB flash as the "ultimate entertainment" tells me this is not a smart tv.
Enjoy.
Edit: Oops, looks like it's out of stock. But you can probably find others if you just look for the shittiest 4k you can find. (You'll probably need to wait a bit as black friday probably annihilated the stock in this class of dumb tv.)
Last year I bought a Proscan 55" 4k dumb TV. Maybe you can find one of them? My review: it's fine.
I use a TCL 6 series and never connected it to the internet. It's pretty dumb. I don't think it can do anything beyond whats possible with the inbuilt Roku software. And it can't dial back home or receive commands because no internet access.
Just don't connect it! LG OLED screens, at least, don't /require/ network connection and aren't yet proactively connecting to any open wifi or have an built-in 4G connection.
Far easier to just not use the smart features than try to find a dumb tv.
I bought a 55" Sceptre 4k "dumb" TV about 2 years ago still works great, bought it directly from manufacturer website. Only manufacturer I could find making them other than some outdoor tvs (not recommended for indoor viewing use). Monitors could be viable but pricing goes up steeply with size of course. Downside with Sceptre is their website is out of stock at moment, I've heard that Walmart in some areas carries them occasionally on their website / in stores dependent on what part of country your in, just gotta keep looking. Buyer beware though if you get one, you will want to pickup a set of speakers or sound system as speakers are usable but tinny.
There are, and they are more expensive. I gave in a while back and started buying "Toshiba Fire TV" because it costs about half as much as a comparable model that does not advertise to me. It's a tradeoff I'm only moderately OK with.
There's a lot of info already in here but I just wanted to mention that TVs specifically for "Commercial" or "Signage" tend to not screw around with all that nonsense.
You will absolutely pay a premium for that though.
I recently opted for Sony Google TV because at least I can trace where my stuff is going with Google. Also it’s hard to find a capable 4K120Hz devices so you’re pretty much stuck with in-device apps to get the best quality.
More important than resolution would be the type of panel the tv had. A good panel will change the way the picture looks dramatically. High quality panels the image will look like it floats off the screen.
You can disable Smart TV telemetry though something like pihole/nextdns
For users in the US, Sceptre.com has a good catalog of "dumb" TVs; unfortunately it seems we don't have anything similar in the EU.
Look also for used signage monitors; they're built for heavy work, from 18/7 to 24/7, and used ones would last more than new consumer TVs anyway. Be aware however that some of them have already been plagued by Android and other "smart" features.
Samsung has however some smart models using the Tizen OS, which is Linux based and potentially more open to hacking if compared to Android.
The best Smart TV alternative I've seen so far is probably this 55" gaming monitor from Philips [1]. The previous model (558M1RY) could be also an option if you don't care about HDMI 2.1. At least on paper it ticks a lot of boxes, but there are not many reviews online and it might not be easy to get your hands on one.
[1] https://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/559M1RYV_27/momentum-4k-hdr-...
Worth considering a projector, most of them are still "dumb". A model with decent brightness and a good fixed screen you can have a true theater at home for similar price to a higher end TV.
I bought this commercial LED TV from Samsung that I thought was dumb, https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1573435-REG/samsung_l... but it seems it has the same OS as other TV's. However it starts up real fast and is not connected to the internet at all. A menu across the bottom appears for a few seconds at startup but then goes away.
Walmart sells 4K RCA dumb TVs. The UI is slow and clunky but I rarely have reason to use the UI for anything. It has no apps and doesn't connect to anything other than video and audio sources. The picture quality looks fine to me but I'm not all that particular about such things. The audio is passable but you'll probably want a receiver or a sound bar. There is a USB port but it doesn't appear to do anything. You can't play videos or anything from USB. It's about as dumb as you can get these days.
Never buy Samsung products.
If you use a regular (smart) TV just as a HDMI-out and watch everything through a connected streaming player e.g Apple TV, Chromecast, Roku...how many of these problems could one avoid?
So if you just use the HDMI port, does the smarttv know what is going through the HDMI port?
A smart tv with no internet connection that only uses its HDMI ports is a dumb tv, isn't it?
Dumb TVs would cost more because availability of smart functionality earns manufacturer subsidizes from various streaming services while the cost of extra hardware is really low (you can get streaming sticks for under $50). Just don't connect to network and enjoy getting a nicer TV for your money. Also on Android-based TVs you can disable any unwanted apps through ADB or install a privacy-enhancing firewall, so that's one middle option.
I have an LG NanoCell. It has "smart" features, but you don't have to set any of it up and it doesn't nag you to do so. It runs WebOS because that's how it runs the UI for the remote, which you need to change inputs. Yeah, it has a bunch of other whiz-bang features but like I said, I don't have any of that setup. I'm happy that it's content to let me use it as a dumb TV and stay out of my way.
A monitor + external TV tuner (and perhaps a HDMI switch)
Just don't let it connect to the internet. I have a lot of firewall rules to block my TV off, but you can also just literally turn off the features.
I was getting sick of my TV nagging about a firmware update that I didn't want to do, so I used Access Restrictions on my router to block it from accessing anything outside my LAN.
That was a good solution for me because I can still use the inbuilt apps for playing local media from my NAS, but no possibility of firmware "upgrades", ads or firmware "upgrades" that include ads.
Look in to the hospitality line of NEC, LG & Samsung which costs a little more but are universally dumb. Lots of input options, but none of the smart features or network connectivity unless you actively plug an ethernet cable in to the ethernet port that some of the models have which permit you to control the TV or send video over TCP.
I have a 4K Dell 55" which is really a Samsung panel.
Given the number of people in this thread who care about this stuff: does anyone have firsthand experience with the LG C1 when it comes to privacy, ads, dark patterns, forcing a WiFi connection, etc?
Been eyeing it as one of the better displays available right now
Fwiw I don't mind on-screen menus for even basic functions like some people seem to; I just don't want it doing anything nefarious
For the USAnians, make very sure to buy a TV with a "NextGen TV" (ATSC 3.0) tuner. Actual 4K over-the-air broadcasts are rolling out across the U.S. now, and this industry website lists current and future markets: https://www.watchnextgentv.com/
I keep mine disconnected from WiFi, and I connect it to Ethernet maybe once a year just to see if there's a firmware update, then I disconnect it.
I have an Ethernet to WiFi bridge that is already configured on my wireless network, so I don't need to pull an Ethernet cable all the way, and the TV never knows the network passphrase.
Try
Sceptre 65" 4K UHD LED TV, or Samsung QB65R.
I have started to see first industrial then consumer devices with embedded SIM cards towards the end of 2000. They were soldered in, now mostly socketed. To access them, the device had to be disassembled, and connect SPI header.
No average consumer will think to or able to disable or avoid using that.
You can buy a hospitality/healthcare TVs. They are quite a bit expensive and harder to find. I buy directly from LG.
New latest one comes with an Ethernet port. If you connect to internet will communicate with the mothership. I had extra that I hooked up to the internet and can see pining lg.com everyday after midnight.
You can simply connect them to the internet then disconnect them. Change the WiFi SSID or password id necessary.
I have the Hisense 65U8G, it's not a dumb TV, but you don't have to hook it up to the internet and it has a physical switch to turn off the microphone. Otherwise according to my research it's about the best TV you can get for around $1000, or at least it was this summer.
Smart TV's are pretty silly; why would I install all my apps and logins on something attached to wall in one place? Smack in the middle of the age of mobile computing?
You can put your streaming box into your pocket and take it anywhere where there is a HDMI panel. For instance, when there is no pandemic, you can take it to a hotel room in another country. Depending on geographic restrictions, you can view all your regular content.
One thing that is very important to me is that my livingroom streaming box has its own audio out. Bluetooth would be okay; in my case, I use a 1/8" jack: even better. That goes straight to a stereo amp.
What this lets me do is turn off the TV while listening to audio-only material, like music. The streaming box doesn't care that the TV is off; it keeps streaming audio to the speakers. Once I introduced this practice, my wife takes advantage of it all the time, to play music for the kids without the distracting screen.
Can smart TV's do this at all? Completely power down everything related to the screen, but keep audio going?
There's a German manufacturer called Medion [0] who offers some "dumb" TVs without any smart features. Not sure if you can buy their products in the US though
[0]: https://www.medion.com
I seem to remember that one drawback of trying for a monitor plus soundbar setup (which has tempted me from time to time) was splitting modern HDMI inputs. Can anyone speak to these issues as they stand today (to the extent that I’ve not misremembered)?
my bravia is so dumb it's got a 100Mbps ethernet port, and the USB port is USB 2.0 so the best wifi is bounded by USB2.0! yay.
I think they just don't want people stream high bitrate stuff directly
I looked and couldn't find any. If anybody feels like making a trip to Shenzen, I think there's a huge (well, Framework-big) market for high-quality dumb TVs and other devices.
I have a NEC(now Sharp-NEC) C651Q. Other than not letting me stick the newest of Raspberry Pi Compute Module inside it and not supporting HDMI ARC it's a wonderful display.
Look for TVs using the keywords “signage” and “commercial” and you’ll have better luck. They are notably more expensive than smart TVs since they can’t sell your data.
Alternatively, are there any secret menu options that can make a smart TV dumb? My TV has advanced service menus that I never explored fully.
Your best choice is a PC monitor.
It'll cost ALOT more, but it'll also be higher spec, and perform better.
Another option is a projector.
I just never use any of the smart features...
One approach is to buy a smart TV and remove the controller board. Get a new control board (sometimes called a scaler, since that's its main function) with only the functions you need. These are available mostly on aliexpress, if you punch in the display panel part number and the word "board". Expect to pay about $90-150 for a 4k board.
This isn't the best option, and it's a giant pain in the ass, but it's very effective.
You may have to consider a projector.
I'm considering buying a projector for this reason, and because I don't want a tuner.
I have a dirt-cheap TCL 43S425 and have never plugged it into the internet. Works great.
What parts can you modify/remove to make a Smart TV dumb? i.e. WiFi card
Yes, I got one but it’s a commercial grade weather proof TV
sunbritetv.com
Yes, Signage.
I for one will stay on Smart screens, but never another Samsung again.
Yes, expensive but indeed dumb commercial displays for offices.
Cant you just get a smart TV and never connect it to wifi?
You may be able to disable non-GDPR TVs by telling whoever is in the support phone line that you are a citizen of an EU country (lying may work) and that you don't agree with any such abuse of your private information.
I also strongly suggest voiding the warranty and disconnecting the wi-fi antenna. That's usually easy.
Dell has a 43" 4K monitor that, with a soundbar, can probably be a reasonable TV, but it lacks a tuner. It's, however, 3x as expensive as an average Smart TV from a rent-a-brand like JVC. Mine (5 yo, FHD) has an ethernet jack but all it ever did was getting an IP address from the DHCP server and nothing else, ever. There hasn't been any traffic for a month or so, before I just disconnected it and reused the cable for a small cluster.
can't you just not connect the tv to wifi when you set it up? It'll still have the useless UI but at least it won't be able to spy on you
What’s the difference between a “TV” and a “monitor”?
Just don't connect the TV to the internet
I've had this same thought.
Dumb thought...DD-WRT for TVs?
why not just leave the tv off the network?
search for "hospitality displays"
One workaround is to just never set up wifi on the tv, then they really can't do anything. That is what I've done at home.
Why don't people like their Smart TVs? I've had a 4k smart TV for years and love it. Being able to stream without needing my phone is great.
It seems ironic that people are complaining about smart TV ads while the [2] link in the OP has an absolutely MASSIVE video ad that takes up 2/3s of the screen.
And it's not like you're not being tracked when you stream from a Roku stick / Chromecast.
Edit: I have a 4k Samsung that isn't laggy and in general is a very good experience.
Look, I think it’s a legitimate question, and I’m not thrilled about most “smart” TV operating systems. But why pigeonhole your search like this? You will almost certainly end up with a worse actual display, which is what you’re spending the money on in the first place. Just buy a nice panel and disable as much of the smarts as you can—-it’ll be fine. Android TV is the best option out there, in my opinion; and it’s what Sony’s run (the best panels out there).
If you buy something marketed as a monitor, it will have no (or terrible) audio, and you will struggle to find something in the >=65” class. I think it’s a fine option for a spare TV, but it doesn’t cut it for the living room.
I get why HN hates smart TV’s, but unfortunately the ship has sailed. I’d rather have a nice TV than be an activist, gotta choose your battles.