I've been in the market for a new job since spring. At the beginning, I was only focused on products I really liked to (in summary, what a futurist engineer geek would like to: AI, blockchain, security, etc). I had several interviews, but no one struck a deal, either because they decided to move on with other candidates or because I decided to drop off.
Fast forward to mid September, I decided to start applying to positions that suit my role and/or career progression, but in less appealing companies. And I have been very successful. The minimum offer I have received doubles my current salary.
So, I'm in this situation in which I have offers which look positive from a financial and career progression point of view, but in boring products which not interest me at all and which have no upside at all.
Have you ever been in that position? What did you do?
For example, you see a job posting at AwesomeCorp doing blockchain-based AI security arbitrators, and then you get the job and discover that you're just writing a CRUD app around a bunch of premade solutions glued together, and then you discover the "blockchain" is just an SQL server, but it got investors excited so they stuck with it.
So, sometimes a job in a less sexy field can actually end up being more interesting/challenging, and getting paid more is always nice.
Obviously, there will be some products that viscerally excite you and others that don't, but let me elaborate: perhaps a company is working on a tool to help construction workers orchestrate cleanups at their work sites...or the company is working on a platform to help automate property management...whatever.
These may not seem as exciting, on the surface, as other products you may have seen out there, but it could be that digging into them further there are elements which will pique your interest. For example, perhaps the systems that need to be built in support of these products are particularly complex or they present particular scaling challenges, etc.
The underlying product may not be super interesting to you, but it could be that the engineering work involved in them is actually more interesting than some other product that feels more exciting to you. Or perhaps the business or operations side of these companies is very interesting and well-executed and there are things to learn on that front.
I'm not expressing this very well, but my main point is that there can be a divergence between products that are interesting and work that is interesting - often times the less exciting product presents more interesting/challenging work. To see that, you need to take into account the entire equation: the biggest challenges the company is facing, the long-term strategy, how sharp the business/ops side of the company is, etc.
Keep an open mind; things that, at first glance, don't seem interesting may turn out to involve _very_ interesting/rewarding work.
I chose to optimize for higher salary. I plan to get back into the nonprofit and social good world later in my career.
As for product fit: AI, blockchain, security are... very different subfields. There's a subtle but important difference between being interested in something vs being interested in the idea of something. Do you know pandas? Do you have experience running a cryptocurrency node? Do you know what are elliptic curves? Being interested in a product means gravitating towards being hands on in them without being prompted. If you're not getting success w/ job applications because you're expecting to get your foot in the door first and expect to be coached on the job, that might not be a viable career path for you in the first place. People who are actually interested in ML study it on their own time. This goes for people in the industry too, not just college kids - I know a number of people w/ a decade+ dev experience taking ML courses and reading up on the literature, and that's only for ML... blockchains have their own literature and so does security, and there's not necessarily a whole lot of overlap.
A classical example of being interested in the idea of something is getting into AAA game development and then proceeding to burn out a couple of years later because of the realization that modern AAA game development generally means working on minutiae like a cog in a machine, rather than being involved in a end-to-end creation process. Another variation is thinking you could "pivot", from, say, frontend development in coinbase to more "interesting" work on actual crypto, but due to the gap in relevant experience and lack of go-get-it attitude, that never happens.
My advice would be: take the pay increase if the alternative is nothing, and figure out exactly what subfield you want to pivot into and proactively put some work to become desirable in that field.
Sure, working for a Crypto exchange might be more fun and look cooler, but if they have 10 customers and you are constantly under pressure to hack stuff into production for an egomaniac CEO, it is not a great environment to grow and work in.
So personally I wouldn’t be so quick to write off the boring or unsexy opportunities. Especially early in your career when you need to learn how to do things properly.
I was before in a AI startup for health with AI in the company name. In fact there was no AI… just a simp’e rule base model with a few parameters on a feature not a single customer used. But hey we added AI in every marketing material and job description. So be very careful and ask the right questions. It can however help to land the next job as everyone thought I work for an interesting startup doing AI, so the bullshit goes on.
I know that is a dark way to look at things, but it is also quite pragmatic. People spend so much of their careers building up wealth, skills, and power, hoping for a future day when it all will give them everything they wanted. But often you can build the life you want earlier in life by looking at your options holistically, trying to balance satisfying and meaningful work that you could be proud of in the short term... while also making enough money and building skills to carry you forward if you are lucky enough to get a long-term.
I have always tried to strike that balance - I don't work for below market rate just to get meaningful work, but neither do I seek out the highest paycheck. I look for work that adds some value to the world.
Use 1-2 years there to upskill in area you care about. Effectively work minimum needed to get a good review from them. Then apply again to area you want to work in, with new salary as your standard.
Will take patience and perseverance.
The most important thing about a new job in my opinion is not the technology you work with or the company you work for, but the PEOPLE, you work with / for...
Are they experienced? Motivated? Professional? How nerdy are they? How arrogant? Does the team work together or is it a toxic relationship? Are things like Coding Dojos, Pair Programming, Code Reviews, etc. well established? Is your potential boss fine with this or not?
The problem often is getting to know the team before you actually starting the job. I always ask for a "training day" to see, how the team is working on daily tasks...
Choosing the right "Team" and building trust over YEARS and having a work-life-balance is the most important step to build deep knowledge and still have fun, regardless in what technology. Much more important for "happiness" than money or hype hunting. If you are passionate for what you do, you will build confidence and learn much more than on the other path.
Just my 2 cents.
Life is short though, once your base needs are met, figure out what you want to work on and spend more time on whatever that is.
1. The space and how exciting it is (AI, Blockchain, etc)
2. My personal growth (learning, but also compensation & rate of career progression)
3. The people (especially who is my direct manager)
Ideally, you can get all three in a job! However, when I can't, then every single time, #3 has contributed more towards my job satisfaction than #1 and #2. However, over-indexing on #3 alone is also sub-optimal.
Even "boring" spaces often have hard problems and if you dig into the problems, then the work can become intellectually interesting. It may not be sexy or shiny, but you need to decide how much you want to index on that. If you are getting intellectual fulfillment in your day-to-day, better personal growth (including compensation growth), and work with & for good people, then that's a pretty good deal. Don't undervalue doubling your salary. It can provide optionality down the road to work on other things, like folks have said below.
Early in my career I worked on what is seemingly boring stuff but the internal engineering problems were surprisingly complex and therefore interesting, even though my "resume bullet" for that stint may appear boring to a reader. Also, the people I worked with were just the nicest and I couldn't imagine leaving that team.
I still look back on that period as the happiest time of my professional life, even though I now make many times the compensation and work on some really externally "sexy" stuff. Nostalgia might be playing into that, but I do remember being pretty happy on a day-to-day basis.
The counterpoint is that I did eventually leave that team and that company because my career was not moving fast enough and I would not have hit the financial goals I had for my family's wellbeing.
I spent a decade doing sexy problems in science, got paid squat.
Now I'm in tech making 4-5x what I was doing, while using the skills I gained from there in a less sexy but much more lucrative pursuit. My team is great, so I am lucky in that regard.
Make hay while you can. The fact you have these choices is great, but career progression is what you make of it.
Funnily enough, my current job has been one of my favorites. There are always creative and interesting problems to solve. The feedback from my team and from the customers is also rewarding.
I certainly have some itches that I need to scratch in terms of personal projects, but generally, I'm satisfied with just how involved and exciting my "boring" job is.
Don't get discouraged if you're not seeing what you want right away. Consider cutting your teeth with some not-so-appealing companies. It may turn out that it's not so boring to you. And also, you'll get some additional experience for when those jobs turn up later.
"You do one for the money, one for the art, one for the money, one for the art, and one because you owe your friend a favor."
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneForTheMoneyOn...
your career is long :) do both!
At one point, I personally took a short-term pay cut in order to join AWS, an organization I once really wanted to work with. Ultimately, the decision paid off, both financially and career wise; hard to put a price on working with great people, building great products, and stretching oneself.
Don't get me wrong, money is important and making that leap of 2x might be the right move for you, right now. That choice will also be advantageous when it comes to future negotiations. But if you are early on in your career, you might want to find a position that allows you to master your craft.
I dropped that and never looked back. My career is very happy, enjoyable, well paid.
As usual there are exceptions in every context, but what you seem to be doing is similar, I believe that focusing on the product is wrong.
Working on a type of product has little connection to the type of work that is going to be performed, which could be boring or very different from what expected.
My thought has always been: focus on the type of work you want to do, the rest comes naturally (potentially even passion for a new product!)
You could try to find a product that interests you intrinsically rather than based on marketing? If you have passions, it's rarely a bad idea to pursue them unless the industry exploits said passion (ie, games industry). Failing that, money's always nice.
I regret not leaving. Nothing has changed at my current job, but I think there is something to be said for the possibility of finding yourself at a local instead of a global maximum. I would hinge a lot of this on your age, but especially if you are on the younger side, I think we undersell the value of leveling yourself up professionally so that perhaps at the NEXT opportunity you will have even more choices. I would factor into the companies that maybe you are not so keen on working on, if whether or not getting exposure to that work, the salary, title, etc. would cause you to in a short while be better position to explore and even wider and potentially more exciting set of opportunities. I think it is to not think about that effect.
I worked for a time at a startup with decent salary in a generalist role, such that sometimes I did things directly related to my skillsets and interests, and other times got to pick up entirely new skillsets. This broadened my horizons significantly and put me in a decent position financially, though nowhere near FIRE.
After that I took a pay cut to pursue something fun and interesting (moving to a new country to help an old colleague establish a research group). This gave me a chance to work on my own projects and passions but also pulled me out of the fast-paced and wide-reaching environment that you find in a startup. The freedom is great but the cash compensation hurts a bit, so the rest of the package has to make up for it -- most days it does.
All things considered, you can find interesting things to do (and people to do them with) in most positions. Taking one with higher compensation and comparable commitment of time and energy is rarely a mistake. Especially if that compensation makes you financially independent with reasonable probability.
>Have you ever been in that position? What did you do?
Yes, I chose the "boring" job that with fabulous compensation. (It was proprietary accounting systems and it paid better than FAANG.) I spent 10+ years at it and made a lot of money but it's also one of my biggest regrets. Consider 2 groups:
- (group A) prioritize money more than the particular job. They can compartmentalize the boring job and do the fun stuff on the weekend.
- (group B) people prioritize interesting work more than the money. As long as the job offers a decent salary, that's good enough.
I thought I was in group A but it turns out I was actually in group B.
However... the big caveat with my anecdote... The problem with answering your question is that the right choice depends on _your_ personality.
The product doesn't matter. You will find interesting challenges in any problem domain. But your coworkers and management will make the difference between looking forward to each day and dreading each day.
It took more than a year, and quite a bit of rejection before I found a company I liked, with the benefit of more money.
I’m very happy I made the move. It took a long time and a lot of faith that I would find something better.
There are some programmers that love to program, and as long as they get to do that, they’re happy. Some are happy to do whatever so long as they’re making boatloads of cash and time to spend it. For me it’s engaging work in a space I’m interested in
And I regret the times where I let money decide. It usually felt like "Ok, I'll just do this for a few years, make a boatload of money and then move on".
In retrospect it feels like I wasted those years. Life is so much bigger than a bank account. Time is priceless.
Maybe it's just the things I like to do don't lend themselves to actual products but instead are the shoulders which others often need to stand on to actually make products. But I don't think I've ever worked in a company where the main product was something I am passionate about, but all my jobs have been jobs I've been passionate about (at least at the beginning of each job).
If the job offers you're getting are to do interesting things to help make boring products, take it! Learn and do the interesting parts that you like.
I'm more interested in stability now. On my last job hunt i was avoiding some more interesting work in favor of stability. I was in my late 30s at the time and just didnt want to go through all the start up problems I've experienced in the past.
That all said, I'm on a small team now working on an ecommerce site. It seems like a boring job, but I've been surprised at how much I've been able to use "interesting" tech to solve problems. You actually dont know when that boring job might be exactly what you want.
It`s all about where you want to go. Then when you reach there, you can move to jobs where you can do the same but for more money or for more interesting conditions.
For example: a friend of mine wanted to be an engineering manager. She worked for 10 years with this objective in mind. At year 8 she become one, but in a sucky place. Now at year 10 she is still an engineering manager but in a place that pays more. Her next objective is to find an engineering manager position with both good pay and interesting work.
If you want to increase your ability to get the jobs you want, working at a well-known firm for a few years is the most straightforward way to boost your resume. People with a few years of Google or Microsoft on their resume often move to the front of the line for hiring.
Take one of the well-paying jobs. Do well, leave a good impression, and network well among the people you meet. Re-evaluate in a few years. Who knows, you may discover you like these companies a lot more than you think. If not, your resume will be well-prepped for the next move.
Career progression is great, but there is an upper ceiling as long you want to still code. Only renumeration can still go up on some point.
I guess I'd try and project out lines for what happiness and financial security look like for both choices, over a couple of decades. Keeping in mind that you can jump onto the other line now, or 5/10/20/etc years from now.
My first advice would be that if you can double your salary, do it. We don't know what tomorrow will be made of.
Also you don't mention work-life balance and quality of relationships with colleagues which to me is more important than interest in the product.
That being said, you can also keep interviewing and try to find a job which checks all the boxes.
The money will follow. Maybe not in the same quantity, but money has a diminishing ROI after a certain point versus working on things you want to work with.
Personally I find it fairly obvious. And while you take that new job and money, nothing prevents you from training in one of those fields that interest you more…
There are countless nonprofits that need your help solving tech problems and you can face some compelling real-world challenges that need very clever solutions to overcome.
Either sounds good. I have neither.
I'd go with money. Get enough of it and you can focus on the products you want to work on, including personal ones.
there are a lot of people looking for jobs right now with keywords AI, blockchain, cybersecurity
meanwhile many disciplines struggle to find decent candidates due to lack of interest
Sam wanted a job that matters, so he rejects the offer. Then the conversation follows along the lines of: "you want the job after this job, but this is the job standing in the way".
In this context, I understand by that: focus on career progression, and then switch to "save the world".
The advice I give to my personal friends is that they should never accept a role that is not 50 - 100% better (or more) across multiple dimensions including pay, skills, product, team, life / work balance, manager. I tell my personal friends that they shouldn't take any job which is not "transformational" to them in some way.
I tell my friends: If you are not jumping out of your seat for this opportunity, don't do it.
This market is crazy, exploding, lots of innovation and hiring. And if you are not finding something interesting in this market: The problem is either your search strategy, your profile / behavior or your network / relationships.
If I were you, I would focus on evolving my search strategy to get away from knocking on the front door and work on relationship building. And if there is something materially wrong with your skill / experience / qualification profile versus some of these jobs: Be completely realistic about what you are missing and go fix it.
When I wanted to become a tech evangelist, I couldn't get jobs because I only had 4 / 10 of what those roles needed. So I spent 6 months systematically closing the gaps in my story and the next job, I got it right away. Be incredibly realistic: Do you have 100% of the check boxes needed for the jobs you want? IF not, go and fix it. This is one area where being able to take an honest, hard look at yourself versus what is wanted is going to pay off.
Get on LinkedIn and Twitter, talk directly to decision makers (or "friendlies" who will talk to you at the target company list). Do more information gathering before trying to apply.
Be prepared to tell people: "Hey, if you see anything like X,Y,Z - Let me know. I am looking for jobs like that." Sometimes it takes weeks or months, but people remember and will send you opportunities. The more seeds like that you plant, the better you will do in six months.
The internet makes people feel like they just need to click to apply. It often doesn't work that way.
Finally: I have found that certain industries have "Super Networkers" who kind of help everyone and are known by everyone and are connected to everyone. I strongly recommend trying to find and make friends with these super networkers / community organizers because they are often the most accessible gateways to breaking into an industry.
Go make friends with these people, let them know what you are looking for and ask them to refer anything they see. This is way more effective to get really good leads in my experience.