HACKER Q&A
📣 mgarfias

What constitutes actionable workplace harassment?


Hello HN, I need some advice here: bossman is not fun to work for. Raises his voice in meetings, gets upset, and fails to listen to what I have to say. I’ll point out a problem with how we do things, and he says I’m complaining. Also completely unreasonable with my time: mandatory meetings at 7am, and then 7pm. Sometimes with little warning. Frequent calls after hours, on weekends, when I’m trying to enjoy time with my family.

Starting to get PTSD from it. Awhile back he threatened to fire me for things like being blocked by other things.

Last Friday night, I was part of a deal to migrate an AWS EMR cluster from Intel instances, to graviton. My end went fine. A pair of apps was having issues coming up. I was released as I was done. I made sure to let everyone know that they could call me and I’d come help.

The next afternoon, Saturday, I got a call from bossman. I was in the middle of a home project that has been repeatedly delayed due to work things happening off hours. I didn’t answer, and was left a vm That I can only describe as psychotic, where I was threatened with being fired due to the “failed migration” - no room for human error, didn’t follow SOPs, maximum punishment of firing, under investigation, but the co prides itself on being very fair (???).

At this point I had assumed the apps with issues were back up as I’d had no comms to say otherwise. None. Not an email, Not a slack msg, no one had called looking for help. I was very concerned.

So, my question: at what point does this become actionable harassment?

My actions so far: fwd vm to HR (after having previously talked to them about the threats). Also sent vm to a director level dude outside of my chain of command, that went to his vp, and the CTO with this.

I’d add that we’ve lost at least 3 people since this guy took over, and morale absolutely sucks in my group right now.

And yes, I am TOTALLY, looking for a new gig. I thought I had something lined up, but the department was given enough headcount after fiscal year end and reqs had to be shuffled around and my position was tossed over board.

I intend to vote with my feet, but in the mean time I. We’d to protect myself and my fam.

Advice kindly requested.


  👤 torstenvl Accepted Answer ✓
You're asking what your legal recourse is. For that you need to speak to a lawyer, who will need — at a minimum — knowledge of what jurisdiction this is, what the specific acts are that you allege are harassment, and what evidence (e-mails? the voicemail? witnesses?) exists.

For what it's worth, I personally don't think you have a strong case (or, rather, you likely wouldn't in a context in which I practice).

Much of your post is bare assertions and conclusions. The only specific facts you present are that, on Friday night, you said you were available by phone if anything went wrong, and the next day he tried to contact you by phone, but you didn't respond. Everything else — "psychotic," "unreasonable," whether something is "pointing out problems" or just "complaining" — is subjective.

However, IANYL.


👤 ilc
While kindly requested, I'll admit, this is tough love.

My thoughts:

1. You can't control your manager's actions. It is ESSENTIAL you truly understand this. You NEVER control other people's actions.

2. Reporting him is nice, but it may come back to bite you in the ass hard if he is not fired. Remember, HR exists to protect the company NOT YOU.

3. Get your resume done, and get out. Even if you are given a new manager, you are a tainted good.

4. During the exit interview. Don't dig a deeper hole. It is tempting, but you are also burning any chance of working at this firm or with some of these people again. Now, that said, it may be worth it. But do it eyes open.

5. Start practicing boundaries. Are you on call? If so, you are stuck with the pager. If not then when your work laptop closes, work is DONE. Go somewhere else in your home and enjoy life. Work is when the work laptop is open. If you do work on your personal machine, or recreate on your work machine: trout slap Stop that! Buy a damn machine of your own, or have work provide one.

If my work actually called me on my phone, I'd have a work phone setup. Separation of work and home is essential in life. The ability to rest makes you a better employee. It is CHEAP.

In the end as they say: Nobody wishes they'd spent another hour at work on their deathbed. Most people wish they'd been with those they love more.


👤 brundolf
Do you have enough savings to quit while you look? If you're confident it won't take more than a month or two to find something, it could be worth it to save yourself the PTSD (and you'd have some time off to recover, too)

Fwiw I've been in a similar (not as bad, but similar) situation. I spent a long time talking myself out of quitting, convincing myself it's not that bad, that I just need to settle in/have thicker skin/it will get better eventually. It didn't, and I didn't. It's perfectly legitimate to be seriously affected by this kind of dynamic and to do everything in your power to get away from it.


👤 tikwidd
This is a good example of why IT professionals need to unionise. Nobody should have to put up with abuse at work. With a unionised workforce we could create standards for ethical employment relationships and independent mediators. Without a union it seems there are limited alternatives -

Leave the job: Boss is not held accountable, no justice. OP's replacement now has to deal with the same problem. OP is forced to change jobs under potentially less favourable conditions and potentially without a good reference.

Sue the boss: Expensive, time consuming and risky if you even have a case. Still probably need to find a new job anyway.


👤 gostsamo
A close friend of mine left her company after a such a toxic manager was given only a warning after repeatedly verbally abusing her and her colleagues. The HR department called that warning an "appropriate action" and closed the investigation. It highly depends how willing are your boss's managers to take action, but it is likely that they know and that they do not care. I don't have an advice besides that you should check if you have your six months of salaries fund to get out if you report him and nothing follows.

👤 avgDev
So, I have worked in many different fields, sometimes earning minimum wage before becoming a software dev.

I have left a job on the spot once in my life. It was a hot summer day and I was detailing a car in a shop without AC. My boss kept hurrying me, and then he exploded and started screaming at me. He was a part-owner of the company. I told him "get fucked" and left. The other owners were calling me apologizing and I never took the job back.

I am professional and I would never raise my voice, I'm polite and friendly. However, I draw the line at people screaming/swearing at me. It doesn't help anything. I respect my bosses/colleagues and expect the same from them even if they disagree with my opinion.

I suggest you walk, and never look back. Being threatened with being fired is extremely toxic. If I were single, I would have talked back and most likely left. However, as a family guy I might stick around to collect paychecks.

You can also do bare minimum, collect your paycheck and interview elsewhere.


👤 snvzz
My advice is to indeed GTFO, like some of your mates already done.

The company will eventually realize this boss is a liability and get rid of it, but that's their problem, not yours. You have no stakes on this.

Peace.


👤 dvdhnt
This might seem extremely basic, and even silly, but have you tried specifically telling your boss that, 'hey, threats don't motivate me. in fact, they hinder my productivity. also, after hours calls are inappropriate.'?

Why would you do that? Well, to stand up for yourself. Also, it could spur your boss to fire you out of anger or whatever, allowing you to collect unemployment until you find a new role somewhere less toxic.

Edit: a word


👤 h2odragon
Bail. Then talk to a lawyer and maybe some ex-cow orkers about doing something about ex-boss.

Your health and safety come first, and do not sound like they are in good shape now. Get out and let your mind unsquish, then decide how much effort vengeance against this bastard is worth.


👤 notananthem
You want to both leave and document his behavior at the company because if it happens to you its happening to everyone. If you just bail, there's not a record of their actions.

If they've made any legal threats or violated any labor laws, definitely seek a labor lawyer, otherwise just over-document every interaction with them until you leave and document that you are leaving due to an abusive environment. Send that documentation to literally everyone. Like orgwide, up, down, sideways.. as long as its documentation and not libel (and you're in the US, not UK etc)


👤 sjg007
Besides consulting a lawyer, a therapist might help you set boundaries and think about the only thing you control in this situation which is you. That doesn’t excuse the boss man’s behavior but would help you set boundaries. Another way to set boundaries is as a group where you all agree to an on call schedule or to hire more folks to help share the burden.

https://www.businessinsider.com/6-ways-to-respond-to-your-bo...


👤 zinclozenge
Generally, the only protection you have in the workplace has to do with discrimination against a protected class. Unfortunately, being an asshole at work isn't against the law.

👤 exolymph
Your boss being an asshole won't get you anywhere, alas, unless it has something to do with you being a protected class, which you would have brought up were that the case.

New job is by far the best solution here. Good luck!


👤 dexwiz
Talk to a lawyer. And not to your company's.

👤 giantg2
First thing you do if you think this even could qualify is to document everything and talk to a lawyer.

👤 bdzfbs
I have over 20 years of experience in this industry and have helped navigate tricky issues for friends and others. Whenever, I see these questions, it breaks my heart, so let me add my advice.

ALWAYS BE DOCUMENTING

As others have said that you should document your managers' behavior, but I recommend start documenting it on day 1. You can call it journaling, if you prefer. You should record, who did or said what and who was present. Try to be objective.

The easiest way to document is email, email to your personal email. Make sure to not include any secrets. Another option is CRM like Monica, this may make things more organized but is harder to use.

NEVER EVER BE PUSHOVER

Never give up your personal time for work. If you are asked to work late or over weekend, just say you have plans. Sometimes that is all you need, sometimes they will ask for more details, just say it is private. Unfortunately, some managers will still try to get more info. A little bit of cultural training will help (this is sensitive topic and may not apply to everyone but it is good to know background of your managers, so you can deal with them in respectful ways of their culture, see below).

CULTURAL SENSITIVITY

In strict hierarchical cultures, saying no to manager is unthinkable. I have seen it first-hand where if manager's wishes are not met, they will throw a tantrum, yell, curse, get HR and their managers involved. It can get real ugly very soon. When dealing with managers from such cultures, I would be very apologetic and show a little too much respect. Sometimes, it is even better to agree and then just not do whatever it is. It is all about appearances.

Another interesting cultural difference is amount of privacy that some cultures have or lack. In India, people are very open, so if you say it is private, they will still keep asking you what it is and they may even help you change your plans. My friend's manager helped him sell his tickets on eBay so that he can work. Never reveal your plans or lack of plans to these kind of managers.

On other hand, American and Western managers are a lot more politically and socially savy. They don't really try to use hierarchy to boss people around as much. They are the most dangerous of them all. They develop what seems like real friendship with their subordinates, they have lunches with them, host happy hours, invite them to their parties etc. But then they ask favors to be returned in the form of long hours at the work. I would consider every moment spent with them as work and reject at least 50% of their social invitations.

Of course, every individual is different and you should try to understand them at individual level.

ALWAYS BE INTERVIEWING

Interview once every year. This will keep you sharp and aware of market situations.

ALWAYS BE SAVING

A lot of people stop becoming pushover as their savings grow. Save enough money to last you, at least, 6 months.

LEARN LEGAL AND HR TERMS

Telling HR that you are feeling tense or about lack of work-life-balance is meaningless. But if work is affecting your Mental Health, causing you stress or anxiety, this will get their attention. I had a colleague whose manager was being abusive, took a several weeks of paid disability leave because his mental health was deteriorating, or he used right terms. Not only that but his manager got in trouble for causing it.

READ BOOKS ON MANAGEMENT & POWER

Never Split the Difference, 48 Laws of Power, etc

EDIT:

In your specific case, my recommendation, is document as much as possible. Who did what and who was present as witness.

Next look up your company's insurance/policies and see if you can get on disability leave due to mental health. Even if you cannot, file some paperwork.

Reject 7PM calls, say you have a family situation.

Of course, consult a lawyer.