Why a 4-day workweek don't get traction or a major movement?

It's because jobs are not about work. Nobody really wants or needs 99.999...% of the the things companies make or do. But everybody needs a job. So we have a ponzi scheme - driven by people who can't really do anything. They have a job with a fancy-sounding title. To make it look like they are doing something, they get a bunch of other people who also can't really do anything to have meetings with. Now they are doing something! Those people do the same - so there needs to be even more people, to have more meetings.

It goes like this all the way down until there actually has to be something tangible. It doesn't have to be good, or useful - just tangible. They give those jobs to some programmers. They are smug and think they are actually doing work, but really a programmer's sole responsibility is to give their managers something to have meetings about.

If we admitted things would work better with less worker time, it would start to undermine the whole system, and everything would fall apart. So 5 days (with as much overtime as possible) it is.

Fundamentally I think it has to do with cultural values.

In the US, we see the ambitious, driven person as the one who wants to work (at least) 5 days a week. We want to believe that outcomes are related to the amount, and not quality, of work put in. This value runs deep to cultural values where idleness is related to sin and “wasted” time[1]. Time spent in economically fruitful endeavors is viewed as important, while other time spent seen as frivolous. Today we see it manifested in startup culture where founders humblebrag about intense number of hours worked, like they’re the true believers in this value system. Larger company execs want to emulate them, hoping their employees show the same “hustle”. Many Americans often don’t even know what to do with their free time!

So in the US there’s a lot of cultural baggage to overcome.

(Of course, this value isn’t held in all cultures, where enjoying the finer things in life has cultural significance.)

1 - https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/idle_hands_are_the_devil%27...

I think it's for a few reasons:

Stigma: Much like the phrase "remote work" had 5 years ago, there is a stigma around the 4 day work week e.g. for many, it's a synonym for "laziness"

Fear: if a company switches to a 4 day week, most believe the customer output will suffer. This has been shown not to be the case however [1, 2, 3]

Culture: Although it's improving, I believe there is still a culture of "work-hard / play hard" in many companies (especially those which are VC backed) - a 4 day work week is the antithesis of this

[1] https://www.4dayweek.com/case-studies-more/mrl-consulting

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/04/microsoft...

[3] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/feb/19/four-day-week-...

p.s. I run https://4dayweek.io - I've now sourced around 50 Tech companies which have a 4 day work week and it's increasing every week. I believe it will become major movement

You just have to ask and be upfront about it. I made the switch to working max 30 hours a week 2 years ago and I’ll never go back to full time. Most recruiters will ghost you as soon as you mention it, but a few will go for it. Most reliable way is to work through your existing professional network. People you’ve worked with before are much more likely to go for it.

I find pitching it as a “self funded 20% time project” also helps with the negative perception of laziness. I’ve been using the extra day off to learn VR game development and rock climb.

With the way the market is desperate for senior engineers right now you have a lot of negotiating leverage, and salary above a certain amount is pointless. Can’t take your money with you when you die.

As someone who's managed to negotiate 4 day weeks in my current and last 2 jobs, I see some issues: You take a pay hit of 10-20% (depending what hours you work over those 4 days) so need to be reasonably frugal and if you've a partner they need to be too, especially if you got kids. It may stand in the way of getting more seniority, which compounds the pay hit (however, I personally am happy as a mid-range, and feel like this may prolong my career life as I'm still coding all the time not doing less techy stuff). You need to keep your employer believing you're committed to your job. In my experience this isn't difficult because in practice you get pretty much the same work done in 4 days as 5, but some people are scared this won't appear the case. In terms of the pay hit, the other side is that with a weekday off you can do some cooking, shop around for cheaper things etc which reduces costs. If you have kids, both parents working 3 or 4 days a week may be tax advantageous over 1 working 5 days and the other 2, for example. To be honest, looking around, my colleagues could easily have asked for 4-day weeks too, and I don't think they would have been refused. A few did ask, and they were allowed too. People like to blame employers for being inflexible but actually I suspect this is cover for their own fear of the unknown. My advice = be bold, just try it. BTW just for the record I do have some above the normal caring responsibilities, so that's why I do a 4 day week and it also gives me an "excuse" to ask.

There's already plenty of people working only 4 days per week, lots of times they do keep a low profile though.

The more workers who do start performing the shorter weeks, the more of the remaining workers will have to work more days per week than they are doing now.

As it stands your odds of pulling it off individually are probably better than waiting to see if it becomes adopted by the mainstream.

So there is probably widespread inertia in favor of the status quo.

I don't think 4 day workweek is the solution. I used to freelance, experimenting with 2-6 days/week. If you're working alone, sure, 4 days is just right.

My last job had me working 10 to 7, 5 days/week. That was too much and I thought 4 days was ideal.

My current job is much more relaxed. Everyone is done by 6 and we sometimes do game night. Management and HR actively lowers pressure, encourages us to take more breaks, and informs us that they've never turned down any request for a day off. Now I'm tempted to work 5.5 days/week, especially when they let me take a day off whenever I feel like it.

The problem seems to be that things aren't in sync. We're not getting enough rest or enough work done; I suspect 4 days is stressful when you have a lot of meetings. Socialising is a huge factor too - I had none of it in my last job, but I'd like more in my current job. I had no time for errands in my last job, but now that they're cool with me running errands on weekdays, I don't need extra time off.

Work remote (if you aren’t already). I’ve been doing it at various companies for the better part of a decade and rarely work a full 5 days per week. There are probably 4-6 days/month there just isn’t much on my plate that day so I take care of errands or spend time with my family, or just do nothing.

I also work just as hard as I did when I commuted and have never been reprimanded for not getting enough done, quite they opposite in fact.

There are fixed costs to employees that are the same regardless of 4 vs 5 day week

Recruiting, HR, training, etc…

My company switched to a four day work week for most people, 4x10 though.

The longer hours take more of a toll on mental health, rather than less.

It's a pain for childcare, trying to socialize with folks on a normal schedule, making up hours etc. Everyone else is working the fifth day, so can't really socialize then. My doctor and dentist don't work that day though, which means can't use it for appointments.

Are people struggling with mental health because of 5 day workweeks or WFH + pandemic. Seems like the latter.

A version of it keeps the same weekly hours - that means 25% more time on an already busy day, which complicates life when e.g. having kids that finish school early.

Another important aspect is that if retirement looks into days worked, you need to work 25% more hours to unlock benefits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages

I blame exploitative hustle culture that benefits VCs and hurts everyone else: https://mobile.twitter.com/JesseMavi/status/9430126578456780...

For me it's an easy no because I don't want to take a pay cut.

most ppl don't want another extra day of childcare at home. They don't want 4 day school.

I don't want a four day work week. That sounds awful. If they made a four day work week, I'd either get another job, or if that was banned, I'd take on a hobby for pay (And likely get my children involved too). It is not normal to not work. That way leads to anarchy, destabilized civilizations, and reversion to animalistic behaviors.