HACKER Q&A
📣 me_me_me

How to go about 'what about long term side effects'?


My brother (29 electrical eng), who I have very good relationship, has refused to vaccinate. He and his wife claim that they are afraid of long term side effects.

When pressed a bit it seems that the concern here is that they are trying for a second child and are afraid of becoming infertile due to the jab. Though it might be just a smoke screen to drop the subject.

I am not good with emotional appeal arguments, and this seems like pure facts might not be enough. So maybe suggest emotional argument angle?

I probably have one shot at trying to convince them to vaccinate so I am looking for possible any possible advice.

PS

Some talking points I am trying to use:

I have read papers on pregnancies and COVID vaccine - surprise nothing found.

Long term effects of vaccines would already show up

Delta and future variants are more likely to infect them even when self isolating

Covid death rates and Covid long term issues vs unknown mystery long term side effects of vaccine.


  👤 gregjor Accepted Answer ✓
Your MD or PhD in epidemiology should persuade your brother, if Googling isn’t working.

My brother won’t get vaccinated either. His life, his choice, not my business.


👤 dnh44
Oxford University has a covid risk calculator which might be compelling?

However be careful it may backfire because if he is healthy then his odds of dying of covid will be way less than his odds of dying in a car crash this year.

https://www.qcovid.org/Calculation


👤 mikewarot
Look up "Long Covid", ask him if he wants to be tired for the rest of his life, learning to live with 12 spoons.

It sucks. It was a mistake to focus the public attention on deaths, and not on the long term effects of surviving an infection.


👤 afarrell
The best emotional argument is to listen and to put emotional labels on the situation.

> "jeeze. that sounds really scary"

> "oy. yea. I'd be quite torn."

The second best emotional argument is just to go fishing or on a hike with him.


👤 giantg2
"Long term effects of vaccines would already show up"

Well, the FDA's site for Comitarny says they don't know the potential longterm outcomes associated some side effects and are requiring Pfizer to perform post marketing studies on it. So it's reasonable to question that. Some autoimmune conditions can take years to manifest too. Like you said, you have to weigh the known/unknown risks of covid with the known/unknown risks of the vaccine. Different people will weigh those differently.

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/qa-comirnaty-co...


👤 injb
His concern is that there could be long term side effects. You claim that if there were, they would already have shown up. Why do you think that? And why doesn't he accept your reasoning for that belief? You are wasting your time reading papers that don't find anything in my opinion. That wouldn't convince me.

The things that I would have an issue with are:

1. Is there an effective treatment that's less risky than the vaccine (e.g. Ivermectin)? 2. Can we safely assume that adverse effects of the vaccines have been properly tracked and investigated since vaccinations began? 3. Is there any historical precedent for vaccine side effects becoming known after this time period (since Covid vaccinations began)?

A rational person will get vaccinated if you can settle these questions in favor of the vaccines. Note, I'm assuming that the person takes the threat of getting covid seriously. There's a common misconception that everyone who doesn't want to get vaccinated thinks that it's all a big joke and covid is no worse than the flu. This is not true. Lots of vaccine-hesitant people take covid seriously.


👤 codingdave
Most people who are against the vaccine are making emotional decisions, not logical decisions. You literally can't change their minds by arguing specific points. If you really want to get into it, you need to find out what is driving the emotions that make them land on this decision.

I have chosen to skip all that. Vaccinated family may come visit us, non-vaccinated cannot. I don't like the situation, but I'm just going to set my own boundaries vs. starting family fights.


👤 charbonneau
> I probably have one shot at trying to convince them [...]

If you only have one shot, forget about it.


👤 jfengel
You can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

I suppose you could try showing them some of the hundreds of news articles about vaccine deniers who died begging for the vaccine, or the testimony of people who survived with destroyed bodies, like this guy:

https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/they-sa...

But I doubt you're going to emotion them out of it. They picked the "long term effects" argument because it's foolproof. Twenty years from now they'll still be able to use the same argument. Their medicine cabinet is full of drugs introduced in the last 20 years, but they'll have plenty of reasons to claim that this kind of medicine is different so they're not really being inconsistent about it.

The only real argument you have is your presence. Breakthrough cases are a thing, and even though they're unlikely to hospitalize you, you risk transferring it to somebody else -- a child under 12, a person with a suppressed immune system, somebody with an allergy to the vaccine. So you can't see them as long as they're taking the risk of infecting you.

But that argument is only meaningful if you stick to it. Are you willing to take that hit? Especially given that it's unlikely to work, and you'll have to follow through.

Because it's not really about long-term effects. It's about his ego and ideology. He's dedicated to the notion that COVID isn't so bad and walking that back would be a huge blow to his sense of self. Even more, I bet, than losing a brother.


👤 new_guy
How about you just respect your brothers beliefs?

👤 jrowley
You should ask if he has discussed this stance with a doctor he trusts and encourage him to do so.

👤 Gibbon1
One thing I noticed very quickly. There isn't actually anything really novel about covid or any of the vaccines.

Covid19 is pretty much gob standard coronavirus which which there are already four which commonly infect humans. One of which uses the same receptor even. Covid doesn't have any weird tricks. Other than no one has any immunity to it, and it can cause systemic infections. Because it uses the ACE2 receptor which are found in a lot of organs and tissues.

The vaccines on the other hand are also gob standard vaccines. So there isn't any reason either to expect any of them to cause unusual problems that haven't been seen before. And none of the usual problems have appeared.

The real thing here is the choice really isn't vaccine or no vaccine. It's you get vaccine or you get covid. The risk from the vaccine if you can call it that is orders of magnitude less than getting covid.

Another consideration is while the vaccines don't show any effect on fertility or pregnancy, covid absolutely shows increased morbidity and mortality in pregnant women.


👤 muzani
I acknowledge that it's dangerous and that it's a heroic thing to take the risk of getting vaccinated. It's scary, you could die, but you're drastically reducing the spread of the disease.

Whatever you do, don't guilt or shame them. Antivax stems from distrust, and emotionally manipulating people makes the distrust worse.


👤 swiley
Instead of arguing with them maybe respect their decision?

👤 cosmodisk
My advice would be just let it go. Here's my family situation: Mum wanted to do but was kind of scared - ended up being one of the first ones in the country to get because of her job. Dad wasn't going to do it,never spoke about why,etc. Sister and her husband categorically refuse to vaccinate ( she's in pharmaceutical industry+ some weird religious thinking going on). I did it as soon as I could. I kept arguing with my sister for ages about it and eventually thought for my self: screw it, we are all adults,I don't neither energy nor need for this, you do it your way. Dad got vaccinated recently and when I asked why he finally decided to do it, he said that he won't be able to keep his job without it.

👤 gmorning315
I had quite long talks with a doctor. For me (34), it was that we don't know the long term effects of covid either (10+ years).

These side effects can happen with covid too. Without vaccine you may have them for many years instead of a few days to weeks.

Then there's the vaccine itself, I'd rather have part of the virus than the entire thing.

Regarding emotional arguments: You can't convince an atheist to be a christian (or vice versa) in one hour. This would only destroy your relationship.


👤 bjourne
It's his body so it's his choice. For someone aged 29 the probability of dying or getting complications from Covid are so low that vaccination may not make much sense.

👤 tomjen3
I can't say what you should do, but what I would do:

1) talk with him so that he knows I care and that my only goal is to do what is best for him.

2) Compare the vacine to covid. We don't know the long term effects of either, but we do know people end up in hospitals/morgues for covid, but not for the vaccine. The ability to have and/or care for future offsprings when you are dead are not good.


👤 mrfusion
Remember when us liberals were worried about the religious right imposing their beliefs on us? I remember that.

👤 kleer001
The long term effects of the disease are far worse than the long term effects of the vaccine.

👤 mrfusion
With all due respect, why not mind your own business and respect their decision?

Your vaccine protects you so what are you worried about?


👤 sigmaprimus
Tell him if he doesn't get this vaccine, he won't be able to tolerate the much stronger booster coming next year and that will leave him and everyone else unvaxinated susceptible to the Sigma variant with no ability to get vacination.

The window is closing, what makes more sense? The powers that be want to reduce population by getting rid of the obedient shot takers or would they prefer getting rid of the skofflaw antivaxxers..


👤 achairapart
This is why even if it is surprisingly lethal long term (and it's not), I don't mind. The thing is I wouldn't really want to live in a world left with disbelievers, antivaxers, cospirationists & co.