HACKER Q&A
📣 Engineering-MD

Best privacy preserving alternatives to Apple products?


After latest apple content scanning privacy debarcle, I will likely migrate away from apple. They have destroyed my trust such that I can’t tolerate the uncertainty they may change their minds later or introduce a hash inspection function secretly.

Which leaves the question: where to go? What is the best alternative to apple products?My current working suggestions, but would greatly appreciate others weighing in.

Phone: Pixel with graphene OS Laptop: System 76 laptop or X1 carbon Watch: Garmin variety of some description Cloud storage: probably nextcloud self hosted


  👤 devchix Accepted Answer ✓
Don't ditch your phone. Divide and compartment its functions. I went to Europe without a phone once. Things were fine but there was a layer of friction over everything. When does that restaurant/shop open, how to get reservation, buy tickets in advanced. The airline had a strike, I had to go through the concierge to find out if I needed rebooking for the flight home, it was up in the air the day I departed.

I had with me a Garmin with a memstick of the local map. Sadly I'd given it away, I wish I had kept it. I also had with me a non-wifi little camera that could shoot videos. I used the Garmin for direction and map. When I got home I unpacked the camera memsticks. Things were mostly fine.

What's the best alt to Apple product is the wrong question. Apple, or anyone else, has such leverage because it bundled so many functions important to you, convenience is the scaling factor. Maps and navigation on phone is great, iPhone camera is awesome, sharing grocery lists and docs is very handy. Put them all together and Apple becomes dangerous to privacy.

I'm still muddling through, trying to think about this and how I will change my tech using habit.


👤 citizenpaul
I've been wrestling with this and I don't think it matters. Fascism is here. There is no escape.

Eventually anything that connects to a network will be crippled to the point of uselessness unless you submit to constant monitoring. If you try to avoid it you will be guilty until proven innocent by default.

By eventually I mean in 2-3 years.


👤 f0e4c2f7
There are 2 phones that are pretty interesting.

One is the Librem 5. I think it's $700 maybe?

The other is the Pine phone. I believe it's closer to $250.

Now from what I can tell these are both terrible phones. Really just terrible electronic devices. But they are devices that can connect to modern cell phone infrastructure and are fully open source.

At least the Librem is. Not sure about the hardware on the pinephone. Librem is OSS down to the firmware. Wild.

Not sure if I'm ready to make the jump just yet but a completely hackable phone is super appealing to me.

Circling back to your original question, both companies seem to be shooting for the privacy angle with the phones.

I've actually been seeing a lot of companies popping up lately in the privacy / open source space. It's pretty exciting.


👤 webmobdev
Mobile OS:

Sailfish OS - https://sailfishos.org/ is the most polished non-android and non-ios alternative currently available in the mobile OS space. You can buy a Sailfish OS license to install it on some specific devices - https://shop.jolla.com/ ... (note though that app support is lacking unless you wish to use Android apps, and that bugs in the OS are fixed slow. End-of-Life cycles are also not clear and specific (support lasts roughly 5-6 years, often highly dependent on the device supported).

Mobile Phone:

- Sony Open Devices (quality hardware, with AOSP, unlocked bootloaders and flashing tools that allow you to install whatever supported mobile OS you want) - https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/.

- Pine Phone - https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ .

- FairPhone - https://www.fairphone.com/en/ .

Desktop OS:

FreeBSD or Linux is good enough for most needs.

Desktop:

Assemble your own with AMD tech.

Laptop: https://frame.work/ is increasingly attractive as a highly repairable and customizable device.


👤 France_is_bacon
I agree with randomhodler84. Get rid of your phone.

However, there might be singular reasons to have one. For example, Stripe will only allow you to be a client if you have a mobile phone, and I have run into this with other companies as well.

If you absolutely need one, there is a very inexpensive way of doing this. Don't buy an expensive phone for "privacy" (who knows if they are actually hackproof?)

For these unique cases, you get an inexpensive Android phone that you can remove the battery from, and you store the phone in a Faraday bag: (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=faraday+bags). Faraday bags completely block any connection with any electromagnetic signals: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage). Test the Faraday bag and see if it works by trying to call your mobile device while it is in the bag from another phone. And see if you can call another phone from your device while it is in the Faraday bag (call and then quickly put the bag into the back, or just dial the number and put it in the bag and hit where the send button should be).

You only take out the mobile phone in rare instances where you need to absolutely have it, when required to get financial or banking services or whatever you need in those very rare instances.

But other than that, you take out the battery, put it in the Faraday bag, and put it somewhere out of reach, just leave it in one spot, and when you have to use it, use it in the same spot, so that the big companies only see you in one place.

By the way, I see the tracking of your every movement as WAY more egregious, because that does it every second of your life. And then selling your every movement too others. Searching your phone is nasty too. But for me, emails are way rarer than tracking my every move, every second of the day. So I don't have a mobile phone. I just use my VOIP, and if someone wants to reach me, they leave a SMS or voice mail, just like in the olden days. I am not on instant beck and call to no man or woman. You don't like it, you say? Fine, adios. Not my problem.

You have a company and won't hire someone without a mobile phone? Just fine with me, guess I'm not working for you, then. I don't care if you give me a free phone - rejected.


👤 randomhodler84
Throw your consumer device in the lake. It’s time to ditch your phone. This turn in corporate policy means there will be no escape from the watchful eye from here on. The automated censorship will only grow deeper, and complex. Expect a global standard of “non-offense”, all states are now forcing their sensibilities on your device. Go deep into foss, and remove as many closed components from your life. I wish pinephone was actually useful, but I have grave fears that there will never be decent open hardware in the phone space.

2020/2021 the year that never ends and our technology burns away the last traces of privacy.


👤 gamblor956
Realistically?

None. Apple was never actually the privacy protector it advertised itself to be, but it's still miles ahead of the Android ecosystem (and I say this as a dedicated Galaxy user for the past decade).

Your choice is basically which company you trust more: Apple, or Google. They're both bad for privacy in different ways.


👤 tenfourwookie
What's obvious is Apple believes it can do this. Why? Have they already done it and were shocked at what they found? That would be some story.

👤 kylehotchkiss
I'll keep my Apple devices but will break up with iCloud - backups were already off, photos is turning off, and drive will be emptied. I've wanted to explore owning a Synology NAS for several years - probably its own can of worms and not bulletproof but at least I'll own the device, can set my own encryption keys, and am not outsourcing storage.

I've been invested in using Protonmail and Tresorit, both tout E2EE storage and being domiciled in Switzerland is a nice plus.

Maybe I'll even take my handheld Fujifilm camera out more. Having sharp photos taken with real optics and not muddled by tons of algorithms sounds refreshing.

I really do enjoy the Apple ecosystem - hardware and software quality are nice, integration between products excellent, seems to last pretty long relative to other tech brands I've owned. I'm just taking an approach over owning where things go off my devices.


👤 mikewarot
I think keeping things un-bundled is the best way to go, for the time being.

  Non-smart phone for calls and texts.
  Laptop for programs, web browsing, etc.
  DSLR for photos and videos
  Road atlas (a paper one) for getting places.
  GPS is nice, but I don't actually need one, for now.

👤 moksly
If you don’t want to go all out you can always just skip iCloud. You can quite easily synchronise your photos, Callander and so on with other platforms.

I’m currently on an office365 business plan though not for privacy reasons, but since it came with a terra byte of OneDrive storage I put my pictures there and not into iCloud as I didn’t see a reason to play two cloud platforms a monthly storage fee. Works just fine, and it also worked just fine when I was using g-suite and not office365 ans I imagine it’ll work just fine if you set up your own storage as well.


👤 Engineering-MD
Another cloud storage solution:

https://icedrive.net

Everything encrypted before upload, cheap and has dedicated linux client.


👤 istingray
Umbrel just launched the ability to host NextCloud services on a Raspberry Pi over Tor: http://getumbrel.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRfJMx1C7NQ

👤 endisneigh
As long as you use no cloud services there’s no privacy issue right now. If you do use cloud services it doesn’t matter if you use Apple or not.

👤 YokoSix
I thought about switching to Pop!_OS but how do you know System 76 is any more trustable than Apple? I mean it’s also an US company and they could basically inject anything into their distro.

👤 yhnikmmncff
Nextcloud is so kludgey.