HACKER Q&A
📣 lifeplusplus

Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?


i read a book best described as dark patterns 4 office politics. It was sociopathic. I disliked it.. but here we're. I gotta develop my office political skills asap. share ur wisdom nuggets

I've noticed who writes the best code doesn't matter and there're opportunities which no one will offer, u have to take them

Laws of prosperity:

1) Prioritize VISIBILITY

- ask ur way into bigger meetings show interest in biz/product side, biz start to trust u and u become the crucial bridge

- propose new ideas as question to whoever above u'd listen

- do value work. emergency fixes and high ROI projects. lots of PRs alone are of no value

- give presentations, move cards in trello. updates to manager his/her manager. ask 4 future plans

- bigger things udo, more biz and architecture knowledge gets locked up in ur head, more valuable u become

- propose & get entire project to yourself. leaving grunt work. massive visibility

- go hard on crucial proj. visibility is double edge sword. keep spacing

2) Socialize

- do this u're already beating most of engineering team. hangout, talk daily

- remember what ppl say

- talk about industry

- get to know their network in the company

- ask questions only they can answer

3) Get transferred to non-eng team

- u're THE engineer in marketing, adops...

- become go to tech person, do their tickets fast. eventually ask to join their team. u'll have so much industry specific knowledge.

4) Make it hard 4 others to encroach ur territory

- 4 new projects structure ur code differently than rest. no frameworks. big files. minimal comments. u get it done in 1 day.

- use new tech. most would be too lazy to pick it up and be totally happy to give that part of the code base to u. to mgmt, u're the owner of this code now = more valuable.

- use odd conventions & make sure every PR adheres to it. nobody will like that code.

goal is to do min work, max impact and have all the cards


  👤 PragmaticPulp Accepted Answer ✓
Deliberately playing office politics with manipulative behaviors like this is a losing game.

These behaviors will be quickly identified and managed out in any competently managed team. If they work, it means you’re in an office that rewards bad behavior. Instead of trying to play the game, work on finding a better job. You’ll be happier and healthier.

I’ve had to remove several employees over the years because they wouldn’t stop trying to play politics like this. It poisons the team and makes everyone unhappy, including the person playing the political games.


👤 betwixthewires
Sounds like a totally unfulfilling life to me.

I've worked with guys like this before. They make you not want to work in software. Build a black box around themselves, become unfirable, make sure to have a say in every design decision even if it is pointless. These types are parasites on any company, when you're the type that genuinely wants to bring value and contribute and learn and solve problems, the sorts of endeavors that actually generate revenue, these guys become needless obstacles. If I were a manager of a team and someone started doing things like this I'd fire them as soon as possible, because they deliberately create technical debt and wear on the rest of the team and erode productivity, and it's best to have them gone before they entrench themselves, which is their goal.

There is some good advice in there. Get to know your team and other colleagues. Take an interest in what they're doing. But these things make for a better life and work experience, they're not a means to an end.

The only thing that is kind of politicky that I'd say is good is to make sure your work is visible. People forget, take things for granted, it's human nature, so it isn't a bad idea to remind people around you in subtle ways the improvements you've brought. If you do that, you'll be judged in your merit, and if you genuinely bring value that is more than enough.

There are certain things I do that may or may not take away political capital, but that ensure you get likes by the people that matter. Number one is to show my genuine disdain for busybody work and inefficiency. Productive people share this sentiment. You might piss off a troublemaker or come across as complaining about something some higher up demands of your team, but you'll make friends that are productive and genuine and you'll create a culture of productivity by ensuring other people are not afraid to voice their concerns about stupid shit either.


👤 npteljes
These are dark patterns only if you exaggerate them as such. There is a lot of good that you can do along the same lines. Reflecting to your points:

1. Communication is key. People can't magically share your experience, you have to share it with them deliberately.

2. Basically the same topic. The brain is lazy and often tries to take the shorter route. Regarding other people, it's easier to think that they are simple, one-dimensional beings, and as such, it's easier to judge them. So, in order to be viewed as a human, you need to share what it means being you. If you humanize yourself, and try to remember others as human, you will get more positive outcomes not because ugly politics, but because you are a better company.

3. Caring about problems people don't like to care about? I think that can be really fulfilling and yes, if others see that you're not afraid to tackle undesirable problems, they'll think you're useful.

4. This is something that is a true bad behavior. There's also a flipside that you'll now be stuck with your miserable code yourself. Also any competent manager or teammate will spot this and work against you, which you don't want.

My advice would be that it's best to stay away from workplaces where politics go like this, it just will bring misery on the long term. One has to play the game to some extent, but there's a lot of difference in only playing the game and using everyone, and just adapting to how humans work in a social setting and working with that.


👤 sp332
There's a cult classic series of blog posts called "The Gervais Principle" https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

👤 runako
Summarizing, it looks like the "dark patterns" are:

1) work on stuff that's important to the company, but build in public (inside the company)

2) get to know your team

3) work on stuff that's closer to the customer, and #4 cynical comments.

Honestly, most of the YC and PG writings will give you more examples of how to do this stuff. And to the extent that you work in a place that gets stuff done, you will find all of these behaviors serve you well.


👤 caseysoftware
Check out the book Corporate Confidential from Cynthia Shapiro.

It details a ton of DO's and DON'Ts about career growth, development, and struggles. It was a great read but stung in a few places where I realized my own mistakes. Odds are, you'll have a few of the same.

And to be clear, it details how to make yourself valuable in productive ways that benefit your team, department and company vs just being a pain in the ass.

Affiliate link if you're interested: https://amzn.to/2MdwZm9


👤 throw2737
There are no money in office, job benefits were hollowed out over decades. Invest money into yourself rather than politics and go self employed.

And keep low profile in office (and university). Cancel culture and meetoo is real. You never know what current correct opinion is. Or when you make your colleague uncomfortable.


👤 Tiziano12345
Politics is an INTEGRAL part of organisations.

It has widely been studying in all social sciences and particularly in management.

Try to read books or articles of J. March or K. Weick or H. Simon ( I'm a talking about scholar with more than 300.000 citations each: they are the foundation of all social sciences) in their manuscript they talk about politics in organisation.

We study these in Management PhDs.

Enjoy



👤 mavelikara
Prioritize visible value for the business. Both parts - visibility and value - are important.

Doing valuable things in secret won't help you. Doing visible things whose value others don't understand won't help either.

Point 4 is a joke. It is better developed here: https://github.com/Droogans/unmaintainable-code . Your time is better spent on the other 3 areas.


👤 jacknews
48 laws of power, Robert Greene, along with The Prince, Art of War, etc.

All need translating to an office setting, and I'm not sure they document "Dark patterns" so much as "The ugly truth".


👤 kingofpandora
Politics or not, you aren't like to go far writing u, ur and u're.

👤 roninhacker
Erik Dietrich had a section on this in "Developer Hegemony." He immediately followed it with, "You won't have a soul at the end of this," and then another section on alternatives.

👤 74d-fe6-2c6
A lot of people argue that there is no point in getting acquainted with toxic office politics and instead one should leave for a more healthy work place.

Theoretically I support this sentiment but - as far as I can tell there are practically no work places without toxic office politics. The only difference is the degree to which it impacts the overall work experience.

Also engineers are traditionally placed at the end of the pecking order. I intentionally say "placed" because it is not so much a result of the individual engineer's personality as it is already a fundamental result of usual office politics.

Engineers suffer from various systemic weaknesses which are difficult and sometimes impossible to overcome. For example regarding office communication. IT is usually considered a separate part of the company which receives orders and is expected to deliver.

Also IT is full of youngsters who willingly succumb to office politics manipulating them into believing that overhours, a modest salery and fearful obedience to management are virtues paving their way to being respected, thanked and provided with a career. So, as a "woke" engineer you not just quarreling with outside forces but also have to effectively compete with colleagues in a frustrating race to the bottom.


👤 huijzer
> I've noticed who writes the best code doesn't matter and there're opportunities which no one will offer, u have to take them

Maybe Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink would interest you. For example, he talks about playing the long game. Those petty office politics will maybe make you win in the short-term, but in the long run I have much more confidence in Jocko's take on work.


👤 dchuk
Stop abbreviating everything

👤 solumos
I read one called Workplace Poker a while back, it was pretty good.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0105V634A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_VWNM...


👤 suyash
Read this book "Secrets to Winning at Office Politics: How to Achieve Your Goals and Increase Your Influence at Work" by Marie G. McIntyre. It shares how to do the right things the right way to grow your career.

👤 baxtr
While I sincerely hate office politics, I think most people underestimate the value of 2). In order to socialize meaningfully you ought to be curious. And curiosity will spark many new and good things to happen.

👤 joshxyz

👤 doingitwell
Admit nothing, Deny everything, Make counter-accusations.

👤 rajacombinator
Pro move - stake out easy projects with clear deliverables for yourself; punt ambiguous or unsupported projects to new or naive people.

👤 cannabis_sam
>use new tech

As someone who believe in pushing the envelope on new tech, I always try to consider the actual situation (i.e. current tech stack in the company, competence within the team, effects on future hiring, a reasonable onboarding path for new hires. Etc.)

It’s hard work, and it is honestly infuriating that these frauds would abuse it to create a career moat around themselves.


👤 Tommah
You may be interested in this blog post: https://daedtech.com/the-7-habits-of-highly-overrated-people...

N.B. The author warns at the end that it is a very bad idea to enact these ideas.


👤 cipher_system
Just focus on solving problems for people and be a person that people like to be around.

Also learn to communicate properly, both in speech and writing. No one appreciates short common words substituted by numbers or single letters.


👤 robjan
If you do these things because you want to rather than trying to trick people into thinking you are interested you will have a more happy and fulfilling career.

👤 arunc
For what it's worth, I would recommend 48 laws of power by Robert Greene. I would go to the extent and say that all his books are fantastic reads.

👤 vncecartersknee
What is the point of doing all that? Like what value do you get from knowing the 'Dark Patterns' ?

👤 prakhar897
Can anybody tell me why anyone would want to join a non-eng team?

👤 a-dub
be up, out or otherwise shielded by age 35 or otherwise prepare yourself for a world of hurt, especially if you care at all about what you're doing.

👤 thesuperbigfrog
Old, but quite relevant:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1232/1232-h/1232-h.htm

"A wise man ought always to follow the paths beaten by great men, and to imitate those who have been supreme, so that if his ability does not equal theirs, at least it will savour of it. Let him act like the clever archers who, designing to hit the mark which yet appears too far distant, and knowing the limits to which the strength of their bow attains, take aim much higher than the mark, not to reach by their strength or arrow to so great a height, but to be able with the aid of so high an aim to hit the mark they wish to reach."


👤 nazgulnarsil
The Ropes to Skip and the Ropes to Know

👤 aero-glide2
This is why I hate office politics.

👤 tarsinge
Except for 4 how is that “dark”? As a company owner I would love to have an engineer getting interested in the business side and maybe becoming a partner. But I would pass on a sociopath applying a playbook for their personal gain.

👤 mam2
48 laws of power