HACKER Q&A
📣 behnamoh

Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?


Looking at decent e-ink devices to write notes on, I cannot understand why they're so expensive. For the price of a remarkable 2, for instance, you could buy an iPad which supports note-taking, and much more.

I know there are some advantages to e-ink displays, but I don't think that's enough to justify the high price tag on these readers/note-taking devices.

There's also hidden costs involved, such as buying new tips for the e-ink pencils.

Has the e-ink industry reached a dead-end where patents are impeding progress, or are there other reasons involved?


  👤 throwaway4485we Accepted Answer ✓
Throaway to not get sued.

E-ink, the company, holds the patents of the pigment core tech that makes "paper-like" displays possible and strongarms the display manufacturers and the users of their displays to absolute silence. Any research project or startup that comes up with a better alternative technology gets bought out or buried by their lawyers ASAP.

E-ink don't make the display themselves, they make the e-ink film, filled with their patented pigment particles and sell it to display manufacturers who package the film in glass and a TFT layer and add a driver interface chip, all of which are proprietary AF and unless you're the size of Amazon, forget about getting any detailed datasheets about how to correctly drive their displays to get sharp images.

In my previous company we had to reverse engineer their waveforms in order to build usable products even though we were buying quite a lot of displays.

With so much control over the IP and the entire supply chain and due to the broken nature of the patent system, they're an absolute monopoly and have no incentive to lower prices or to bring any innovations to the market and are a textbook example of what happens to technology when there is zero competition.

So, when you see the high prices of e-paper gadgets, don't blame the manufacturers, as they're not price gouging, blame E-ink, as their displays make up the bulk of the BOM.

Tough, some of their tech is pretty dope. One day E-ink sent over a 32" 1440p prototype panel with 32 shades of B&W to show off. My God, was the picture gorgeous and sharp. I would have loved to have it as a PC monitor so I tried building an HDMI interface controller for it with an FPGA but failed due to a lack of time and documentation. Shame, although not a big loss as an estimated cost for that was near the five figure ballpark and the current consumption was astronomical, sometimes triggering the protection of the power supply on certain images.


👤 pidg
I own a reMarkable 2.

There is certainly enough to justify the cost, if you are a prolific note-taker.

Conversely, I find it hard to justify the cost of an iPad, becuase I already have a phone and several laptops. I can't see a situation where a tablet would be more useful to me, so I've never bought one.

Turns out different people have different needs, and the e-ink note-taking market caters to that. Most people would find an iPad more useful, so they're lower cost.


👤 toyg
Beyond patent issues, TBH I would not have a problem paying for a reMarkable this very day, if I could be 10000% sure that there wasn't some shitty SaaS service involved in using it at any stage.

These days, whenever a new gadget comes up, my first reaction has become "I wonder how they try to screw you into a SaaS later".


👤 edent
I have a Boyue Likebook Ares - it cost £190. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/11/gadget-review-boyue-likeboo...

It has an 8inch screen - about the same size as the iPad mini. It runs Android 8 but, obviously, some apps work better than others. It came with several nibs for its pencil.

They have an 10 inch version for around £230. See https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/boyue-p10-is...

So, there are some cheapish, largeish, eInk devices out there.

I was told (and I have no way to back it up) that the yields on eInk are fairly low. They make a couple of square metres of screen, and then have to cut it to size. Because of defects in the process, they can have a lot of wastage. So the larger sizes are disproportionally more expensive.


👤 brassattax
I think e-ink screens would be great for musicians too! A lot of musicians are using iPad Pro, but I personally would rather have a dual screen e-ink device like this (for better battery life, better readability): https://www.gvidomusic.com/ ($1600!!)

First company to build something like this and bring the cost down to something a bit more reasonable will get my business.


👤 dpritchett
Not supporting a browser, games, or a media player IS the killer feature for anyone with ADHD or other focus issues.

There are lots of us out here.

Some even people do their deep work on a separate airgapped computer just to preserve their focus.


👤 ericd
I wouldn't think of the remarkable 2 as "less than" an iPad. Part of the point of it is that it is completely focused on being a paper replacement. It doesn't pop up random notifications at you while you're trying to think, and it doesn't offer the opportunity for distraction when you get momentarily stuck on something, which makes it a lot easier to power through.

It's like how not having junk food in the house makes dieting a lot easier - you don't have to use willpower to do the right thing, because the wrong thing is hard to do.


👤 corytheboyd
I remember buying my first LCD display in the CRT era. It was tiny, thick, ugly, and of course expensive. Now they’re cheap and everywhere. The same will happen with e-ink in time.

Honestly I would rather have the iPad for note taking. Response times are important for rapid idea translation, and e-ink systems are very lacking here, whereas the iPad is not. Probably an unpopular opinion, but it’s my own experience.


👤 ohitsdom
I would have loved to buy something more capable, but instead I settled for this cheap LCD writing display as a mini-whiteboard. I don't even know how to describe this technology but it gets the job done at $20.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QL11LWF


👤 sneak
My guess, from ignorance: the volumes are way lower vs traditional tablets, thinning margins and driving retail price up.

Niche devices almost always cost more.


👤 luplex
I suspect an additional reason: their customers are not very price-sensitive. They obviously can't compete with paper on price, so they don't even try.

👤 daniellarusso
Economies of scale?

👤 tyler109

👤 tyler109
You should check our reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/eink/

There is lots of advice on affordable e-readers, diy e-readers and buying advice


👤 aurizon
From what I read, it has no advantages in the marketplace - except for a high price...

👤 figers
Just bought a boox note air and love it, writing on it does feel like paper, syncs to OneNote & OneDrive Love reading kindle, feedly, hacker news, instapaper, zinio, etc

👤 RicoElectrico
The company holding patents for e-ink is literally retarded, as if they don't want it to succeed. I'm not making this up. [1]

Sure e-ink has its flaws, but wouldn't it be better to have a smaller slice of a much larger cake?

OLED is patent encumbered too, there's also a patent holding company, despite that you can buy smallest modules for less than $2 on AliExpress.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22829798


👤 powerapple
People buy e-ink devices for a special need, the market is small, so the price would be higher. I wish Apple can produce a eink device. I bought an Onyx BOOX Nova 3. I bought it mainly for web browsing and ebooks. Surprisingly, taking note with it was quite pleasant. Although I love it and use it everyday, I really with there is a good quality device both on hardware and software level as Apple devices.

👤 mlthoughts2018
I own a Remarkable 2 and it is vastly superior to an iPad (which I also own) for many use cases. I would likely pay more for Remarkable 2 than for a full-sized iPad at this point, as the streaming and browsing capabilities are not useful to me anymore (I would use iPhone for all of that).

I’d also like better integrations with alternate cloud storage providers, but this is true for Apple products too.

Combine with the fact you can literally ssh to your Remarkable and write your own apps, it’s a no-brainer.


👤 dominotw
low scale niche products. obviously.

👤 cameron_b
Not E-ink, but alternative tablet - Repaper:

https://www.iskn.co/repaper/shop/repaper

I got my wife ( a non-techie painter ) one for Christmas and just set it up last night on our iMac.

Adoption -> volume -> buying power -> lower component prices, better feature implementation

I think most of the alternatives suffer from adoption challenges, but I personally love Unix-model physical devices [ which do one job well and work well with others ]

So vote with your dollars, and feature requests