HACKER Q&A
📣 throwaway23334

Startup employees getting nothing after acquisition, is this normal?


throwaway account for obvious reasons, but here are the facts:

- startup founded in early 2010's, took on some venture funding and recently got acquired - startup forced employees to exercise options within 90 days of leaving company, so lots of employees exercised options with post tax dollars. I would guess anywhere from $500k - $1 million. - all financials released to shareholders, company is now profitable and has a decent warchest. - Series A,B,... etc investors getting some money back because they have preferred shares - employee options/common stock are now worth nothing because of liquidation preference - multiple executives receiving 7 figure payouts

Is this common practice? Is there anything we can do as ex-employee shareholders? Are there any instances of companies paying back their employees for the option exercises during an exit event? What would you do as a founder in this instance?


  👤 birken Accepted Answer ✓
First of all, talk to a lawyer, most of the people here have no clue what they are talking about.

Any shareholder of the company has shareholder rights, and in fact you would get a vote on any change in ownership of the company (of course your vote probably wouldn't matter at all, but you still have one). Another of these rights is that the executives of a company have a fiduciary duty to all shareholders in their decision making. However I can imagine situations in which the story you've described is both completely reasonable, or situations in which it is grossly illegal. But of course it would only be illegal if one or many shareholders sued the company and won, which is where the lawyer comes in.

There is no sense in sharing any more details here on HN, find a lawyer, talk with them in detail about the situation and listen to their advice.



👤 habitue
So, the company failed. It might be profitable, it might have a war chest, but if the preferred shares are getting "some" money back and common stock is getting nothing, then basically what happened is that the company borrowed X amount of dollars, and was sold for some amount less than that.

It sounds like the company raised a round at too high of a valuation.

The rules around options really suck here (the 90 day rule isn't the company's rule, its a tax thing). There is a reason a lot of companies are moving to RSUs: they avoid forcing early employees to make long shot bets with a significant fraction of their liquid assets (or stay at the company potentially over a decade until a liquidity event)


👤 almost_usual
Yes. I worked for a company that was acquired and got peanuts afterwards. I’ve made orders of magnitude more in RSUs since. Work for a public company and don’t kill yourself for startups.

👤 aetherspawn
Yep. I just exit a startup that went broke, had to make do with not paying all their staff for over 9 weeks, and then finally got a massive investor that set them up for 2+ years of burn.

I resigned at 8 weeks of no pay, and couldn’t even legally force my company to give me a redundancy (3 years service) and I’m currently fighting to my right for 2 weeks notice pay (see note 1).

When you work for a startup you don’t have any rights to anything and you shouldn’t expect them to care about you.

Note 1: all this garbage is legal in Australia where all employee rights are hinged on insolvency and “hope for an investor” counts as not trading insolvent, which makes using your employees as creditors without their permission possible.

I’ve learnt my lesson about all of this. I will only work for established companies and I encourage anyone in the job market to think twice about signing with a company.. you need to be as confident in them for their responsibilities as they need to be in you.


👤 shamino
This is my main grip with YC touting startups as a great place to join, but not helping them negotiating fair equity. Yes, founders deserve credit because they took risk, but they need to spread the wealth for execution. It should almost be illegal to give employees such low equity, relative to what founders get.

👤 ThrustVectoring
You probably want to talk to a lawyer.

The executives have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of shareholders. That means you. What that means in an acquisition can vary a lot depending on the specific details of the deal.

This is the extent of my legal knowledge on the subject, which is why you need to talk to a lawyer. The likely result of this avenue depends a lot on the amount at stake - if you paid like $5k to exercise, you probably pay the lawyer hundreds of dollars to send a letter and then negotiate a settlement that pays you 4 or 5 figures, avoiding the expense and risk of a lawsuit on both sides. Assuming of course, that you're already a former employee - current employees can and should have negotiated waiving their shareholder rights as part of the acquisition deal, assuming that their expertise is part of how the acquiring company is valuing the deal.


👤 ForHackernews
> What would you do as a founder in this instance?

Laugh all the way to the bank, most likely.

This is sad but common. Stock options in a company that hasn't gone public should be treated as a lottery ticket: It's nice if they turn out to be worth something, but their most likely value is $0.


👤 kqvamxurcagg
What you've described is very common among the startups I work with.

The founders/executives would have received payouts as the board or acquirer agreed a package to keep them onboard and smooth over the acquisition. Very common. It's not fair but that's what happens. I've seen incompetents awarded millions of dollars. Boards and acquirers don't really value employees and spend very little time discussing them, unless there's a problem.

As others have said, options and stock are a lottery ticket and should be valued at $0. More than likely, the startup you are working for will fail slowly or never become a major hit.

You should actually only accept earning MORE working for a startup than a corporate because the risk is greater, you'll be less employable after and the stock you get will be worthless.


👤 thinkingkong
Part of the challenge is in addition to liquidation preferences there are board resolutions. If the board agrees to pay management bonuses then they can make that a preceeding operation to the liquidation (with approval) or after conversion to commons. In other words common equity dispersion is the S in bedmas.

👤 frederik_secfi
I know this won't help you right now, but for anyone worried about this sort of outcome in the future: there are companies that provide liquidity financing

E.g. https://www.secfi.com/products/liquidity

Basically they send you money while the company is still private, and you pay it back (+ a fee) after the company has exited.

If the financing is 'non-recourse', you won't have to pay it back if there never is an exit, or if there is an exit but one in which you don't make any money (like in this case)

So taking liquidity (if it is non-recourse) de-risks you from these kinds of outcomes.

Full disclosure: I'm the CEO of Secfi.


👤 exogeny
This is normal, and happens a bunch when founders over-raise. A somewhat canonical example is FanDuel selling for >$1B and the founders getting zero.

As far as the motive/"is it right": I'm going to take a somewhat contrarian viewpoint than those presented so far, having seen this happen on both sides of table in my life.

In my experience, and in most cases, the founders aren't necessarily doing anything shitty or sociopathic. They likely raised more than they needed at a higher valuation than was deserved -- for perfectly normal reasons, such as a frothy market or the simple fact that in startupland raising money is considered a win itself -- and it caused a set of benchmarks that ultimately became impossible to overcome and thus the common stock became worthless.

Transaction happens, founders are considered key to the successful merger and the acquiring company worries that the merger won't be fruitful if they bail so they receive some compensation as a sign-on bonus and/or an earnout.

If you want to argue that early-employee non-founders get disproportionately screwed in regards to their sweat equity vs. actual equity, you're absolutely right but that's a different argument altogether.


👤 rmk
Sorry to hear that you got nothing for your hard work. But this happens more often than you think. What this means is that people who can scuttle the possibility of investors getting their money out are getting paid to essentially go away and not jeopardize the deal. Investors were getting 1x liquidation preferences in the investing frenzy of the time, so it is entirely possible some of them also have gotten screwed (LPs are generally kept confidential).

Clearly preferred stockholders are the ones who are getting their money out of the pot, leaving nothing for people who can't hinder that in some way (i.e., non-executive rank-and-file employees).


👤 hasa
Options for employees are typically worth of nothing. I've seen sad stories of stupid+greedy employees who have taken huge loans to buy them and lost serious amount of money.

👤 deanmoriarty
If I were a founder, I would give the ability to all my employees to convert ISO (with 90 days window) to NQSO (with 10 year window) and completely avoid the problem.

As far as financials go, sounds like your company agreed to higher liquidation preferences, so probably nothing shady going on. Just poor business decisions that may have been necessary at some point.


👤 jusob
Good read: Amazon acquired Eero (https://mashable.com/article/amazon-eero-wifi-router-sale/). Employees got nothing, founders and executive got millions. This is not my experience in SV, though.

👤 whateveracct
i worked at a startup - already making millions of dollars for its Fortune whatever pilot customer.

However, when i left, i found out the biggest investor had a > 1x liquidity preference. It meant my options were worthless this entire time. It's a shame you have to know to ask about that or else you'll get sold snake oil.


👤 remote_phone
This happens all the time. You have to watch out for liquidation preferences. Anything over 1X these days means stay away. It completely changes the calculus of whether or not it’s worth it to exercise your options. And if the company isn’t forthright about it, then leave or don’t join.

👤 tematema555
That's normal unfortunately. I know cases when employees trying to sue the company but usually the company is well-prepared for such cases.

My personal takeaway: choose the founder you trust. Even after such issues, I will be able to communicate with founder and get some justice.


👤 icedchai
It happens often. If preferred investors only got some money back this means there was not enough to distribute to common. The executives likely did a side deal where they got a carve out.

👤 rl1987
There's nothing more normal than winning $0 in a lottery.

👤 2rsf
Normal AFAIK, myself I exercised and sold all my options the first moment possible just to hit the all time high of the company that only went down since then

👤 internetslave
Start ups are a financial vehicle to transfer wealth generated by employees to founders and investors.