HACKER Q&A
📣 jMyles

Who is working on fully decentralized social networking?


I imagine that the news about Parler having its plugs pulled both from app stores and AWS hosting has many of us thinking: what will it take to build a solution where that's simply not possible?

I know of Matrix, Mastodon, and PixelFed (and use the first two), but is there a 'facebook killer' in development right now?

My concern is that, while seizing control of social networking from big corporations is surely a great idea, it may be initially inundated (and thus, socially formulated) by the same whackjob culture that flocked to Parler from Twitter.

How can we ensure that balanced and healthy communities form on the decentralized web?


  👤 fedorhk Accepted Answer ✓
> My concern is that, while seizing control of social networking from big corporations is surely a great idea, it may be initially inundated (and thus, socially formulated) by the same whackjob culture that flocked to Parler from Twitter. > How can we ensure that balanced and healthy communities form on the decentralized web?

Sigh. The problem with all decentralized platforms/solutions is that they're focused on "decentralized", not on "platform".

So high level plan should be: 1. Make platform that actually compete with w/ FB, Twitter, etc. 2. Decentralize it.


👤 cprogs
I am. I working on creating an "API-first" social network that doesn't specify implementation, only interface. This way everyone/anyone can run their own server that exposes their own content through the API. They can run this on their own domain and using whatever technology and implementation they want. Other users can choose to follow you and receive notifications directly from you. You can also use whatever security, moderation, throttling, and architecture you want.

This may sound like it places a lot of burden on the individual but I plan on having reference implementations from super simple all the way up to clustered nodes ready to run in Docker containers. And hopefully with it all be open source and API-specified only, people can contribute other implementations.

The API is extremely simple. It is REST based and easy to comprehend. Anyone could write a simple server and reader who can program PHP, Node Express, or anything else.

The driving idea is to put individuals in complete control of their data and experience, and maximize interoperability. Much like an HTML img tag only has a src attribute, but the browser know how to retrieve the image from a server (which knows how to serve it) and then display it in the browser. Conceptually pretty simple.

If anyone is interested in knowing more, please ping me. I would like to release an API specification soon for discussion and refinement. Email in bio.


👤 mcv
I moved to Diaspora after Google Plus was killed. It's mostly good, if small, but with one really big problem: you can block trolls, but trolls can always create new accounts and come back.

It's probably impossible to create a decentralised social network where don't constantly have to reblock the same trolls but also don't get locked into a tiny closed community. I want to be able to talk and share with the whole world, but I don't want to have to block the same assholes over and over again because they keep making new accounts. And I assure you that trolls can get pretty bad on any open, decentralised system. They certainly do on Diaspora.

Maybe something where your network only expands through trusted nodes in your network: if a friend follows a lot of trolls, maybe keep him as a friend, but don't allow your network to expand that way. But someone else might follow a lot of interesting people, so open up your network a bit more in that direction.


👤 Cthulhu_
The problem with decentralized social networking is that there would also be no control; you NEED people with elevated access that can remove content, else it'll end up as a platform for hate speech and child pornography (I know, 'think of the children' is a tired argument, but if you cannot moderate, it will end up as a cesspool).

👤 khawkins
I don't think this is ever going to work in practice because there is a significant incentives misalignment. The people moving to other platforms are doing so because the tech giants are trying to stamp out free speech. Someone who uses the platform for anything other than political speech has little reason to jump platforms to something that has significantly fewer people and an underdeveloped interface. You're guaranteed to create echo chambers of only the speech you sought to expunge.

More importantly, we should all revisit the world politic of exactly 10 years ago, where the biggest story was the Arab Spring--anti-government protests in the middle east. At the time, social media was heralded as a major factor in spurring the protests, despite tens of thousands eventually dying in the conflict. Governments were condemned for blocking access to the sites and many free-speech advocates attempted to develop work-arounds. Social media enabled the self-determination of the people in the middle east, something we should all care about.

Regardless of how people feel about the capitol riots, the war on free speech from silicon valley should scare the shit out of all of us. They are setting the precedent now for curbing any revolution in the future. The idea that "healthy communities" are the target really depends on who's doing the diagnosis.


👤 kennu
I've used Scuttlebutt (https://scuttlebutt.nz/) and Aether (https://getaether.net/) which are P2P apps, but I never really started using them. Didn't find interesting content or communities to keep me engaged. It's not easy to build a vibrant social network from scratch.

👤 pasdechance
There is all of the Fediverse stuff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse

👤 anyonecancode
The things I feel are broken about social media won't be fixed by decentralization. They'll be fixed by better business models. What most concerns me about social media is:

- privacy is not only not respected, but in fact actively and aggressively undermined

- online culture is increasingly polarized and extremist. Misinformation and disinformation are symptoms of this.

The reason for this, as I see it, is that social media platforms make their money off the actual online conversations. So to make money, they need to get more and more people on their platforms, they need to trigger strong emotional responses to "engage" their users, and they need to mine as much personal information from their users so that they can sell that to advertisers and other interested parties.

Contrast that with pre-digital social networks and hubs, like bars and pubs. The business model there is to sell food and drink, with the providing of a social place as an ancillary service, not the main product. To make money as a pub, you provide food and drink people actually want and an atmosphere they enjoy, but you're not attempting to directly monetize your customers' conversations.

I'd like to see a decentralized social network in the sense of online conversation hubs attached to actual businesses. No "global" platform, just thousands of smaller hubs where certain online shops get known for hosting good online conversations which draws an audience who _then buys things_. Social networks need to go back to being a way to attract customers, not actually being a direct source of income.


👤 edoceo
I was hoping to build something.

Every publisher/user runs their own node, or from a node-service provider. And then you "friend" and follow built around RSS with signed or crypted items in the feed. Other nodes operate as aggregators and discovery services.


👤 _wldu
A good first start is to own/control a domain (such as whatever.com) and use a web hosting provider that supports its clients. I strongly encourage people to use Nearly Free Speech. They've been great to me over the last 15 years or so.

Beyond that, I think originating your content on your property is key. If someone repeats it on a social network, that's fine. Just don't create it there.


👤 abramN
I have been thinking about this. My idea, that I dubbed "The Mesh" basically has each person's profile data as a blob "somewhere" on the internet. The person's profile would have different tiers for the type of data - personal, professional, etc. Inviting someone to communicate or collaborate with would be a transfer of keys that would allow you to access a particular tier. The user would then use a web browser client or native app to access/update their own profile data, communicate with other profiles they have keys for, upload their own profile data, etc...

Clearly, though, taking control over their own data, and not allowing a FB or similar to own it would require an investment on that person's part. Either hosting their own data or finding an online host they could use would require $$$.


👤 aklemm
Whatever you do, please work off Activity Pub, IndieAuth, Webmentions and other protocols that already have traction. This is largely a UX/traction/business problem not a technical problem at this point.

👤 SubGenius
I'm in the middle of tweaking Gurlic to use Matrix(Dendrite) as a backend. It's a ton of work unfortunately, with the limited time I have. It's codenamed Hummingbard and I hope to release something in a few weeks. It'll take a while for it to reach feature-parity with Gurlic though...

https://gurlic.com


👤 PaulHoule
Use XMPP the same way that cops and soldiers do.

👤 mlatu
I am currently working on a VR IDE.

My plan is to get some code editing functionality going, add VR support, build cool stuff in it and expand functionality slowly towards a VR OS-shell (think Windows 3.1).

Eventually I want to also build some sort of network experience which will require communication with other instances.

You can follow my progress here:

https://www.awesemble.de/cgi-bin/fossil/public/vrkbnch/home

At the moment I'm cleaning up another repo with experiments and salvaging what I can before I rewrite my AST visualizer.



👤 mindcrime
I was working on that idea a long time ago. Got away from it, but I still have an OSS project I work on here and there which is a "FB like" social network product, and another which is a "Reddit like". Neither currently has a lot of specific support for decentralization / federation, other than use of RSS and ActivityStrea.ms at the moment. But I would like to pick up some activity in this area again at some point and work on integrating with the "Fediverse" and maybe look at TBL's SOLID and see if there's anything there to incorporate.

Time is the biggest challenge, unfortunately.


👤 inetsee
I wonder whether the solution to the problem of being overwhelmed by whackjobs / trolls is to create clients with the capability of recognizing these toxic individuals and blocking or isolating them automatically. Essentially create a filterbubble that protects you from individuals you would avoid in real life. Spam filters exist that block bad emails, that makes me think that a filter could be created to block bad posts in a decentralized social network.

👤 motiw
Few years ago I experimented with a social media in which User-submitted posts become visible only after filtered and ranked by random anonymous polls sent to sub group of the community.

It requires members to vote once in a while but eliminates biases and increase diversity.

I got some activity but did not have the time to keep alive and experiment. I still think the concept have potential, maybe someone will refine it one days.


👤 Kototama
I know of https://planetary.social/. It's based on Scuttlebutt.

👤 dnautics
I have a thought about building a generic p2p system over webrtc. As a hoster, I am incapable of moderating content since I don't keep the data (it's all in people's own hard drives, e.g.). The hard part though is that getting people to write webrtc-based apps is unreasonable, instead I'd let you get apps that expose html/js data and serve html/js over RTC.

👤 mariusor
I know of Smithereen[1] that is an attempt at a full fledged social network similar to VK on top of the ActivityPub vocabulary.

[1] https://github.com/grishka/Smithereen


👤 b3u
I've heard of [friendica](https://friendi.ca/) as a decentralized facebook alternative. I assume you need friends who are actually using it, which is why I don't myself.

👤 claudiulodro
I sort-of am. I'm playing-around/working-on a decentralized messaging network using WordPress sites as the nodes. The advantage here is that WordPress sites are easy and standardized to host.

👤 rglover
Long-term, it will take ownership of physical hardware/networking for hosting and in the short-term, usage of a distributed DB like IPFS or Sia's SkyDB.

👤 austincheney
I am, starting with file system access.

👤 keiferski
I wouldn’t consider myself “technical”, so I don’t know if this is possible, but:

What about designing the entire system around tagging and filtering? Anyone can post anything, but users can choose which tags they want automatically hidden.

Example - any post with the word Trump in it gets automatically tagged with Trump, politics, etc.

This would remove the “filled with whackjobs” problem while simultaneously allowing for free speech.


👤 rriepe
> the same whackjob culture that flocked to Parler from Twitter

As long as people are primed to viscerally pre-hate any competitor, it won't work.


👤 new_realist
Please don't work on fully decentralized social networking. Humans social evolution is thrown way out of whack by social media, which makes it unstable and dangerous. When it does need to be regulated, it should be possible. We are a society of laws.