HACKER Q&A
📣 hn_throwaway_tn

Strategies to avoid a toxic job? What are the warning signs?


For the first time in my (20 year) career, I'm quitting a job I've only worked at for a few weeks. Until now, the minimum I'd worked at a job was for 18 months. Never been fired. Never gotten a bad review. I'm a "jump in with both feet" type and have a strong personality. I've been in leadership positions for 15 years.

The job I quite was a team lead/manager job and was very lucrative for the market. The software organization is new in this company and so is its executive leadership. The teams haven't yet shipped a product, but two previous prototypes failed. In the interview they claimed to use scaled agile framework in one of those "starting fresh, big budget, hiring the best" situations. Sounded awesome.

I got good feedback over the few weeks I was there but I could see the environment was a complete command-and-control waterfall environment. Micromanaging executive. Directors that came with him from a previous job. Design your database up front. Despite a simple and well-trod problem domain, teams of (only) junior developers had spent months talking/meeting/designing - with poor results. Every day was a calendar full of meetings to prepare for other meetings. I discovered other teams were reporting fraudulent statuses creating the illusion of progress when no actual progress actually existed. Clearly a deathmarch.

The leadership situation is pretty much exactly what Joel Spolsky describes in his (now 14-year-old!) post The Command and Control Management Method:

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/08/the-command-and-control-management-method/

I'm aware that if I find the perfect software team, I shouldn't ruin it by joining. I just really really care about making excellent software and felt like I was in a situation where that was impossible.

So I ask the Hacker News Hivemind: what can you do before accepting a job to ensure the work environment is a good one to be a part of? How can I make sure not to repeat this situation in the future?


  👤 Minor49er Accepted Answer ✓
Unfortunately, it's always going to be a gamble. Companies want to attract talent, so they'll highlight the best parts during the hiring phase. Employees may also be reluctant to express any frustration to a candidate too, since they might convince the candidate to turn away, which could get that employee in trouble.

On the flip side, getting feedback from sites like Glassdoor might give the wrong impressions too. Some employees may have left on bad terms and leave scathing reviews that may not reflect the common experience of the other workers.

That said, for future opportunities, be sure that you get a chance to talk to employees who either have or have had your position, plus managers. Ask them how often they attend meetings, how much time they get to work uninterrupted, how they have advanced at the company, how much control or how much of a voice they feel they have, what their biggest accomplishments at the company have been, etc. Also find out why that position is open now. That can say a lot.

Finally, ask to see the working environment if you haven't. For me, during my last job, I ran through the interviews without seeing the office space and ended up accepting the offer. The workplace turned out to be a warehouse that was converted into a gigantic, cacophonous open office. They had a ping pong table too, so when someone would play, that's all that the 50+ people in the room would hear.


👤 lbjvydjig
Warning signs would be company centered on a person or owner not ideas or mission. Hiring for personal loyally not qualified people

Lack of responsibility in leadership. Does the leadership own their responsibility or do they abuse their positions

Focus on appearances and selling an image of the company. Focus of superficial and short term. Not long term difficult goals


👤 ystad
You can never be sure. What you don't like could be someone's calling.

Try to find people in your network who work for the company before you join to get a better idea of the real state of things