Do kids drag your career down?

Kids—I have 3—reinforce attributes that should be valuable in the workforce.

* I ruthlessly prioritize — you have to when you're balancing a family.

* I don't dwell on mistakes – milk, quite literally, is spilled on a daily basis.

* I'm a better manager – kids teach you to be clear and immediate in your feedback, not to mention more empathetic

* I speak better – reading bedtime stories means you practice public speaking every night

A company that measures performance in hours or dedication will not reward those attributes. But the good ones will happily give you flexibility in exchange for good work.

If you're struggling to find a balance, know first that you're not alone. But recognize quickly that your employment environment may be incompatible with family life, and so what's "slowing your career down" is your management... not your kids or your own performance.

I'm over 50 and don't have kids. It is incredibly unlikely that I ever will have kids ;-) Has it helped my career significantly? I don't think so. I know lots of people who are more successful than me in objective terms that do have kids.

Not having kids means that you get to be selfish. That's pretty much it. If you want to devote yourself completely to your job, you can. I did that for some time. It was fun for some time :-) If you want you can travel a lot. I did that too. If you want you can quit your job and live in a shack by the ocean and teach English. I did that too.

Having children is always going to be a tradeoff. It requires time, energy, focus, and huge amounts of money. It requires you to be responsible, to prioritise and above all to be selfless.

On the other hand, based on virtually everybody I know who has kids (and doesn't have other significant problems in their life), there is a pretty significant payback. If you have a child, I assume you understand that payback.

I realise that it's tempting to want it all. It seems unfair that people who prioritised other things got advantages that you don't have. Trust me, I understand that. I've lived all around the world. I've worked in many super interesting jobs. I've been able to literally say "Fuck it" and forget about money and just do what I want. But I'm never going to be able to go home and give my child a hug. Trade offs.

  Ever since i have had a kid, I have started asking the reverse question; Is my career dragging my parenting down?

I always wanted be a good dad, whatever that means to each one of us, my career choices started showing up in conflict. I had to make choices. Overall, over the past few years having a kid really made me think about my priorities. It made me focus and plan more and improved my ability to do more in less time. The first few years are hard and you will not be able to give as much time to your career if you want to spend that time with your child and spouse in constructive ways. Which is fine because the career is 40 yrs long. My conclusion is that I chose to have kids and now I will work on maintaining that relationship because at end of the day you can change jobs, go to a place that recognises people have lives, do something else in your life apart from your current career (you never know), but your kid is your kid and not someone else's and the early years will not come back again. As for my experience with my manager - As long as i get the work done, my place of work doesn't care about being seated in office. With Work From Home now taking off there are plans of making this semi permanent even if things go back to normal. Edit: formatting

Honestly that's the worst way to look at it. In the grand scheme of things kids are way more important than any career. Obviously kids drag your career down but ask yourself: what are you going to leave behind after you die? Will you be yet another inheritance the government gets after you die? Yet another dead SSN? Or will you leave behind something far more valuable than a mere product like 2+ living beings continuing your bloodline and thus making the world better,safer and one step closer to the future? You are a mere spec a mere nothing compared to earth... 1 out of 8 billion... You can't live forever, you can't bribe death, you can't even delay the inevitable by a lot - the best you could do is on average 10 years in pain and misery... When you are old and sick who will be there to hand you a glass of water? Who will wipe your * when you can't... Who will defend you against bad people when you are too old? Your money devalues with each day, the clock is ticking, every second passes never to be seen again you are one second closer to death and you can't bring your money to the afterlife... Kids will outlast you... Money is worth as much as people say it does.

Yes, 100% completely. Once I had my kids, I was never as productive as I was pre-kids.

But it was completely worth it.

"watch the kid" -- I think you spelled "be a parent" wrong.

I don't know where you are in your career, or what your expectation is of a career, but there are lots of companies out there where you can do interesting things, be well paid, and have time to balance your work and family life. You just need to look for it just like you were looking for a higher salary, more responsibility, or even use of a particular technology.

Asking about it at an interview may get you an answer, or rather, anything but an emphatic "yes" with some examples may be a strong negative sign. But I think the key thing is to decide what you want out of both a career and a family, and to find the job that puts you on that path.

Having kids (3 so far, 3, 5, and 7) helps me prioritize my time better. Before getting married and having kids, I was all over the place, had poor routines and probably some unhealthy habits in terms of diet and sleep. Having other people depend on you changes your priorities quickly.

Also, it's very difficult at times, but incredibly rewarding, more so than even the best programming highs I've had, when you can see a new thing one of your kids learned, and realize you were part of that.

Their imagination also keeps my brain a bit more flexible, especially as I try to join in their own crazy fun. And being able to act more like a kid with them also keeps me loose and a little crazy, which helps me to be more positive and, maybe, 'chipper', in my interactions with workmates. At least I think so.

Again, there are very difficult times as a parent. But the highs are so much higher when they come, and I would not trade it for being back in the bachelor mentality and spending more of my live donating overtime to a corporation (though there are some very positive things from that part of my life too, and I have some friends who would probably not thrive as parents!).

Your career isn't necessarily your job. If you work somewhere where they judge you for having kids then it might be best to move on. Do they judge people with hobbies, pets or drinking habits a similar way? The only time that is an issue is in industries where you genuinely need to work a lot of hours, which are few. Trading desk, pilot or surgeon springs to mind.

Also if a company requires you to do 60 hours of coding instead of 40 and it's just JIRA tasks adding feature X Y Z then those extra 20 hours don't help your career at all, but if you did a 40 hour job and spent 10 hours learning carefully selected skills in your spare time that would help your career a lot over time.

Not for me. It's turbocharged my career. It helps that I'm at the level where management isn't seeing my contribution as hours in a chair. Having kids gave me something in common with all of our senior management. Anecdotally, that improved relationship has been a hell of a boost for my career success.

It certainly will depend on your individual situation. If your management is all childless workaholics, I can see how it would totally count against you.

In my experience, once I moved in with someone that had kids and I started talking about family at work, it seamed like I got bigger raises and better promotions. Whereas pre-family, I was seen as "just a kid, a smart one, but still just a kid". After I was treated as an adult.

What's interesting is that I have observed the opposite in my career. I have often seen that employees who have children are afforded more flexibility, shorter hours, and less work than those who do not have children. While I understand these are necessary if you have children, a disproportionate amount of work and higher expectations are given to those without children in my office. For example, if you have a child, that is a perfectly acceptable reason to work from home, but simply wanting to work remotely is not accepted. Do I need to have a child to work from home (especially because I can't have children...lol)? Anyway, this is obviously not a universal experience across companies (and trust me I'm happy that parents have these perks at my company), but I do find it frustrating when someone is expected to stay at the office until midnight because "what else would they do" if they don't have children lol. Basically, everyone should have less work, more flexible schedules, and realistic expectations given to them regardless of their personal life.

I used to get really worked up early in my career trying to win the ratings game. When I got older I began to question the concept of the career, ironically when I finally started ‘winning’ at it.

1. Ratings and promotions within a job/company are boss personality and politically dependent and typically very unfair. Lots of hard work goes unrewarded.

2. Even if you do get lucky and get a promotion, your prize is 5-10% salary bump (maybe) and more work, stress and meetings (I don’t much enjoy meetings myself). Look closely at most big company executives and think if you really want the job for more than the social prestige/ego. They travel a ton and are always in meetings, it gets old.

3. So if the executive jobs are undesirable, then climb the ladder for money? It takes allot of money to make a difference, I.e you need $500k in the bank to ek out approx $1500 a month in cash flow at 4%. If you making $100k annually or $150k annually, $200k, or even $250 its still going to take over a decade to save a decent amount of money. The 5-10% salary bump doesn’t make much difference.

So why a career? There are likely more efficient ways to make money if that’s your goal. Starting a business, blogging, consulting, etc may have more risk but the ceiling is uncapped unlike a ‘career’. So why sacrifice something wonderful like time with your child? Money? Ego? You want a great LinkedIn profile one day? If given the option tomorrow, I would max my parental leave unless it impacted teammates in a negative way.

I would genuinely be interested if this is a minority sentiment?

> Less hours means less dedication in the eyes of management.

You need to change jobs. I work for a fortune 100 company that is extremely supportive of kids and families. They don’t just talk the talk, but they actually walk the walk.

Yes, kids take time. Lots of time. So if you believe that more time at a work is better, and that it's a zero-sum game (i.e., time with children will take away from time at work), then yes, having children will be bad for your career.

But there's a ton wrong with that thinking.

First: Exercise takes time away from work. Vacations take time away from work. Sleeping takes time away from work. And yet, even the most die-hard workers realize that they have to exercise, take vacations, and sleep. And that doing so makes them better people, healthier and more well-adjusted. And even better able to do their jobs.

I can't speak for everyone, but I've found that my children -- now 19, 17, and 14 -- have not been distractions from work, but complements to it. They have helped me to find insights, to understand myself and the world, and to generally be a better person.

Second: It's possible to make lots of money and have a great career with children. It's also possible to do so without children. So it's not an either/or situation. Yes, you'll have to prioritize. Yes, you'll be frustrated sometimes that you can't finish a work project because the kids need you. But it also gives you some perspective, understanding that even if your project is delayed by a day, that's OK.

Third: There's no doubt that children can be maddening, frustrating, and time consuming. Especially when they're young, they demand lots of attention. But in my case, all of that frustration was easily counterbalanced by the joy, excitement, and fulfillment that comes from having children, speaking with them, and learning from them.

Finally: If your job means that you have to dedicate yourself to it, to the exclusion of everything else, is that really a job you want? If your company doesn't encourage you to take time with your family, or for yourself, what sorts of people are working there, and do you really want to be working there?

I don't know if I would be a worse consultant, trainer, and developer without my children. I would be a different one, though. And given how happy and successful I am now in my personal and work lives, I wouldn't want to be that other person.

No. Well... no. My first kid was born in 2006. I left a big 4 accounting firm after an acquisition in '10. Tried to do a start up with a friend... Health food delivery in Oakland in 2010, without any connection to any of the big VCs. Failed. Second kid was born the fall of '10, third in Winter '13.

Looking at raw income numbers, I was making 85k in '06, 75k in '10 (had to find a job quickly after the startup failed - insurance needed for the child birth!) and around 95k in '13. I'm making around 280k right now, so I think I'm on track regardless of having kids or not. A key to my income is that once I stopped working in an office and got rid of my ~75 minute one way commute, I started a part time job, remote software development. That was project based, not raw hours, and since then my primary job has also changed to project based, not raw hours. I'm not killing myself each week like a lot of stories I hear. On a real busy week I'll do about 50 to 55 hours.

Now, another measure to consider, I have coached little league for about 5 years, travel softball for 2.5. My busiest season was fall '19 where I coached little league, ran the LL skill building clinic, head coached a travel team (10u) and assistant coached my older daughters 14u team.

I'm starting jiu-jitsu next week with my son. I've reduced the amount of coaching down to just two teams total. No head coaching.

My advice: prolab caffeine pills!

It seems like a kid should be more important than being the best worker imo. Seems like sensible priorities. I don't have a kid though.

I'm the CTO of a small company (about a dozen people), and I don't know that my career has been hurt, but I've certainly had to reprioritize. Doing dev work, where the occasional task can take 30m to 30h, and you have to be focused for hours on end, is less practical when you have to rush out for daycare pickup, have a toddler jumping on you, or try to work during nap time which often ends earlier than you'd like. Consequently I find myself doing a lot more business development, product planning and people management. I still write some code, even if it's often more efficient to delegate. I like to keep my skills up to date and to not become slowly ignorant of my own company (a problem I've seen plenty of times before).

One way it's helped, is it's a really easy topic to bring up with clients or on sales calls. It makes me more relatable, and gives a good first impression since people assume I'm at least competent enough to provide basic care to a child.

Being a parent helps build a skill set that can help you level up your career - if your employer values them. It can also make you less interested in that advancement. My own anecdote:

I have two kids (3 and 1). I’ve experienced a bit of a leap in soft skills; empathy, mentorship, and patience, to name a few. This has corresponded with me taking on many more leadership responsibilities in my team, and being recognized as a go-to thought partner and interestingly as an authority on technical matters.

I took 6 months of parental leave for the second child (I know, incredibly generous). I came back and received an “exceeds expectations rating”.

I have colleagues who are also parents. Several of them are “staff engineers”, the highest level of recognition at our company.

On the other hand, I turned down a promotion as I felt I’m already giving all I have time for/didn’t have bandwidth for the extra responsibilities. I’m happy with my current compensation and responsibility set, especially as it allows me to spend time with my family.

But for kids, what is the point of a career?

Perhaps my POV is old-fashioned, but real honestly, the only reason I went to school, obtained a professional degree, and made fat stacks of Benjamins was to get a good wife (and then kids, etc.)

If that was not my plan, I would have lived in a shack on the beach and smoked dope all day.

who gives a fuck about making the man money. Enjoy your life, nobody who matters gives a shit about your job title.

I think too many people are obsessed with making "all of the money", when just "some of the money" leads to a better lifestyle.

That being said: People with kids get fired much more rarely, tend to get the promotions, have much more understanding around missing work, and parents tend to watch out for eachother.

I'm still somewhat early in my career. I have 2 toddlers.

I don't know how others perceive me but I know I'm not able to give nearly as much to work as I would without kids. When I last interviewed for jobs, I was asked about my side projects. I made the joke, "I have kids, they are my side project, haha," and I think he understood.

This is in the short-term though. I suspect that long-term my career will be better than it would've been without kids b/c I think I will be overall happier with kids than without, and I'll be forced to make better life choices like go to bed on time, etc. To be clear I didn't have children so my career would be better :D

I have a 1yr old and a 2yr old. I definitely struggle to find a balance some days because the kids are super needy and I always want to go heads down at my job. Perhaps if I worked out of the house I may be writing something different now.

When you start the actual construction of a structure you may begin to fret that the amount of time you are able to devote to erecting the scaffolding around it is now in decline.

This is by design. The structure was always the goal.

If a manager told you that parental leave means lower rating, that's a clear signal the company doesn't value families.

With everything that is involved in growing a kid (teaching, empathy, learn to talk in the most simple and direct way), I would be surprised if you are not actually improving. All those interpersonal skills are growing, they might not match directly to your job (e.g. Coding), but will make you a lot more valuable. I am father of a 2 years old and my mentoring skills increased dramatically since I got her.

The greatest joys, rewards, and challenges in life (growth opportunities) come from family (including extended family where possible). (Plus that it simply doesn't look like a good prospect to rely only on government strangers to take care of us when we are old! We can be good to our nieces/nephews too, and others of course.)

In my belief system, these important, challenging, and joyful relationships can extend into eternity as well, if we choose to make the necessary commitments (specific covenants with God) and keep them, learning and improving throughout our lifetimes. Money is like nothing, in comparison.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-family-...

https://www.comeuntochrist.org/beliefs/family

(more at my own web site, linked from my profile, or http://lukecall.net )

I would not obsess about your employer's rating too much. Look at the economic perspective. I did this as an economic analysis some time ago for myself. (It was not kids, but another commitment in my case.) Your employer is a just a customer for your services. A lot of people forget that not only has the employment relationship to be beneficial to your employer, it has to be profitable to you as well. And profitability in your case, is not just the net money you make from the job. It is also the hedonic value you derive from NOT working, but instead spending that time with your kids. And the value of that you will find is very large. Not only will you derive enjoyment from the hours actually spent with them, you will be setting up the kids to have a happy healthy and productive life in the future and a having a great relationship with you. The economic value of helping raise a successful, well-adjusted adult is very very large. Compare that with the economic value of a slightly better rating. Even in economic terms, paying attention to your kids should be a no brainer.

It seems that half your question is about experience, and half is indirectly asking for advice. So, experience:

My experience is the opposite. Since having kids, I have been ruthless about changing jobs as needed, standing up for what I need, and getting a lot more money on each career move. I was much more lax on these matters before, and would spend countless hours on pointless drivel. I still spend hours on drivel, but I count every hour! As others have noted, having kids makes you question the value of your time and forces you to be much more efficient.

Advice: Value yourself more than your managers value you, present yourself with confidence backed by experience and knowledge, and your career prospects are wide open.

Also, I mean this in all seriousness, read "Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" by Roger Fisher and William Ury. Its advice contributed the most money directly to my bank account of any book I have ever read, followed by "The Richest Man in Babylon," another good book. (Getting to Yes to increase my income, Babylon to decrease my spending and increase my savings.)

This is totally anecdotal, but I’ve seen coworkers have kids with a partner who stayed home and their careers seemed to take off but people who coparent and both work it seems to take some of the wind of their sails. I feel like me not being a parent, especially during this pandemic, comes with the expectation that i will work more, which i honestly have zero interest in doing.

One thing I haven't seen in the comments just yet : YMMV largely depending on which country (and company) you're in.

I used to live in France (and my brother still lives there) and long hours are kind of expected. I now live in the Netherlands and we actually _almost_ got in trouble with the daycare for bringing our kid there 5 times a week because we were both working full time. Most people I know (agreed, as engineers we are privileged) work 4 days a week and won't do over time.

If you ask me, that makes a lot of sense. I get done in 8 hours what I used to do in 10. And next to that I have a life.

In any case, don't let anyone make you feel bad for having kids. They're much better than any career you can dream and don't let 'management' take that away from you.

I was a long time soldier with many kids and it ended up my wife (sort of) asking me to choose between work and family. My opinion: if Your work is anything dependable, You have to neglect family to be good at work. If Your job is anything regular, "family and career" can be done really nice.

Doing more stuff means you have less time for work. If you really like work and want to spend all your time doing it why have kids, pets, relationships, hobbies..?

In my case having children has made me more interested in my career. I need to provide for them and set a good example to an extent. Previously my focus was on whitewater kayaking, spending time with friends and travelling. I can't really do those things now anyway so it makes sense to spend more time on my career, but while the children are awake and I'm there I prioritize them.

You may want to think about the kind of companies you work for. If everyone else in your company has kids and family responsibility their priorities will be more aligned to yours. I found this out to my cost and would be unlikely to work with a small focused start up in the near future.

> Less hours means less dedication in the eyes of management.

In the eyes of bad management, yes. In the eyes of good management, quite the opposite. If you are spending more time working then what's expected to get your job done, my concern is what happens when you 1) leave or 2) burn out. I'd rather have you spend your time doing what your job and then relaxing and not burning out then burning out or leaving. Reliability is key here.

This is also a problem if they leave, because it sets a false perception of what can be done in a normal work week.

Not to mention the actual quality of the work long term. Basically, everything I've ever seen of excessive hours per week results in long term losses.

Yes. Without question.

It's worth it. It forces you to shift what you care about, and career path is one of those things you have to think differently about. That's also worthy of having kids.

To get where you want to go you often have to go where you don't want to go.

I would recommend using this period to create a good bond with your kid. While taking parental leave and having absence have negative impact on your management, you can switch jobs and all is forgotten.

The short answer is no, they don't drag your career down. But they give you a reason to re-prioritize how you invest your time in a way you've probably never had to before.

It can take a couple of years as a new parent to adjust. Every person and every family will have different needs and approach the transition in a different way.

If the management at your company doesn't value your family then the question is really whether or not you agree with them. Is your family worth it?

I work at Google and usually taking parental leave or even simple paid time-off are not supposed to be penalized. Come performance review season, if you've been absent for 4 out of 6 months in that review cycle, you are usually prorated and evaluated for the 2 months you’ve been around as if that work has sustained for the whole cycle. How much of this we can prove (that it doesn't impact ratings or promotions)? Probably not a lot. You’ll find that no company is willing to share that data to save their bacon.

Most people waste so much time on the internet that you can simply channel this time into parenting, which is much more rewarding, and on net not lose any real work or focus time.

At the places where I worked, the people who pushed and shoved to get into the higher paying jobs, or changed jobs for more money, without exception, all had kids. So there's a tradeoff. You will have less spare time, but possibly more economic motivation and career focus. But you might have to find a job where you are not measured by hours in front of a screen. That might ultimately be a good thing anyway.

I have been promoted regularly since becoming a parent.

In my experience, you have to be more proactive in marketing yourself and your work. I have worked from home for seven years, picking up my three kids every day at 3pm.

It feels like you are always falling behind. But overall, I have found myself doing okay relative to my peers, while cultivating a solid family schedule and focus. Everyone is different, but the times I have lost out in office politics are far outweighed by the other things in my life.

If your productivity is measured by the hours you put in and not your output, you have a bigger issue than the question if your kid drags down your internal rating or not.

Doesn’t matter if your employer managed to get a bunch of your fellow employees to vote for them in one “great place to irk” survey or other.

Find out what the job you want is, work to get the skills and start looking.

There are many ways and reasons why having kids can slow your career, but the flip side has been more important to me. Kids made me more focused (there’s no putzing around when balancing kids and work) and caretaking allowed my personal responsibility to more fully develop. The experience has made me a better and more effective person.

I think it depends on your priorities. I was heavily career focused, then had kids and focus my time on family now. If i really wanted to i could pick them up from daycare late, i could get baby sitters, i could do what’s required to be more dedicated to work, but i wouldn’t get that time with the kids back ever.

Children are your career, your job pays for it.

Spend quality time with them, don't wait until they don't need you anymore.

Thé weight of your family on your career dépends a lot of thé behaviour with the second parent. If thère are fights (even silent), kids will also be more difficult. Try to have a good split of the tasks and to be thankful and respectful.

in my case being a parent has made me waste less time and prioritize with more responsibility. Also remember having lots of time doesn't equal productivity all the time (think about parkinsons law, work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion"). You can have shorter periods of "available" time throughout the day but if they're well used you can be very productive. I have a couple of friends who have 3 and 4 kids and they're more productive than I am. How does that happen?, I think the important trick is how you use your time

If you’re a woman, almost certainly. If you’re a man and don’t have a homemaker as a spouse, probably. If you’re a man and have a homemaker as a spouse, then only as much as you choose.

My career has soared since I've had kids. I don't think it's because of that (and who knows, maybe it would have soared even more had I not had kids) but it also didn't drag me down in any way.

I wish responses would specify their gender and if they are in a heterosexual or same sex relationship. It would be easier to frame where these answers are coming from.

    Do kids drag your career down?

Yes. If you're a good parent.

A lower rating probably indicates you should find a better job that fits your life realities better.

The worst thing for a career is not being able to relocate for a better job. Families make this way harder.

kids are important not money / career. If you need more money to support family then live a simple life where you wouldn't do unwanted expenses. Food cloth shelter, other than these everything else is unwanted for your life and your family.

Eh, having children is kind of your literal biologic imperative. Pushing my blood on for another generation, having some sort of legacy and living on in people's memories postmortem are all things I value. Any random company that would drop me like a sack of potatoes if they needed to for whatever reason comes second to family for me, and I don't even have kids.

That being said, the engineers I know who have kids use it in one of two ways. They either try to use it as leverage for a better WLB to spend more time with their families (or, if they're not the world's best parent, to take a vacation under the guise of caring deeply for their kid), OR they go full on cut-throat sociopath career mode to enable the best life (financially) that they can for their family. Then there's the wildcard option: company doesn't care at all about your new priorities and nothing changes. That's when you brush up your resume and try to find somewhere with a management team made of human beings instead of lizard people (or the aforementioned career sociopaths).

For those that had kids and said it was completely worth it, could you elaborate?

as a Man, no.

If I was a woman, yes, without a doubt. I've seen it in other women, I've seen it in my own wife. Shit is just not fair.

Of course they do! You want to spend every minute you can with them and start cutting whatever corners you can with everything else.