HACKER Q&A
📣 valleyforge

How do I escape webdev?


I'm a self-taught spaghetti coder webdev with thirteen years of beginner experience; mostly learning by googling how to do everything as I built web apps for small businesses or wired up forms and APIs through agencies. It worked for a long time, and yeah I'm probably that guy who wrote that stinky codebase you're dealing with. I'm not particularly proud of that.

Anyway, my "skills" (heh) seem to be mostly irrelevant now. I hated frontend ever since the responsive era, but I got by sticking to less design intensive stuff. These days the web is evolving very rapidly and I've kept up sorta, but I'm not passionate about this field, I'm getting older and there's lots of competition now and I'm unemployed. I basically want to get as far away from Node and React and CSS as possible. What's a good path out?


  👤 tekkk Accepted Answer ✓
So you want to write spagetti in another language because webdev is getting too difficult? In my opinion one should strive to learn their craft well, and if you havent by now, you should very quickly educate yourself out of writing bad code. Otherwise it's a habit that keeps you feeling bad about you and your code and hold you at disadvantage against that competition you are so worried about.

But if you think a break in another domain would just magically make everything better, try becoming an expert in some obscure domain in some not-well reputed company. There most of your work will probably end up be muttering a few words in meetings and drinking coffee, with no one to tell you what to do as they dont really understand your domain.

There are a lot of codebases with really bad code that no one wants to take care of, so findind a gig like that would probably also pay you well.


👤 PopeDotNinja
Self taught developer here.

I learned to write better code by making code testable. When writing spaghetti code with a few tests, I'd create a big mess that worked. But then I'd try to add a test for something new and I couldn't figure out how to make it work. After coding myself into a corner enough times, I'd eventually learn to create more flexible abstractions. And eventually the code started making a bit more sense out if necessity.

The next big jump in my understanding was learning Elixir and the actor model. Learning how to write async code that didn't get a reply and where messages might not be received was huge.

I didn't get my first dev job until I was 40. I most definitely understand what it feels like being older than my peers in this industry. My secret weapon is knowing my shit and working my ass off to stay relevant. This is a hard industry if you don't like it enough to keep your skills sharp. Like you, I don't relish front-end development, but I do my best to learn what I need to know as needed.


👤 ac29
I've got a friend who almost exactly met your description a few years ago. He moved into technical sales at a midsized SaaS startup and its been a good fit. If you're technically inclined enough to write even hacky code that works, you can probably wrap your head around a companies software product enough to do technical sales.

👤 Kaotique
A lot of websites these days are "build to last", but that is almost always a sales argument with very weak evidence. It just sells well to the client because they think they buy something for the future. And every agency or freelancer sells the same lie.

We make websites according to the latest fad and all your work will be thrown out when the business decides to change agency, framework or rebuild everything in some marketing automation tool. I've worked in an agency for almost 10 years and I have accepted that fact.

No matter how beautiful your code is, most web code is thrown away after a couple years anyway. It is just has to do what it is supposed to do, nobody cares about the code.

Agencies also deliver spaghetti code, what is the definition of that anyway? All code is spaghetti in some way. All real code is a mix of different styles and approaches. It will be a mix of OOP, Functional, declarative, imperative code. It is all custom build by different people with different backgrounds.

If you want to work on a more structured codebase then try applying to a company who have 1 product and 1 big codebase. You are likely to find much more structured code there because organising codebases take a lot of time and effort. For a larger codebase with more people working on it things like design patters, rules, best practices, linters and tests will become useful and teams will add then over time.

You will not easily find all of that in web development simply because there is no budget for it. There is only 1 goal in web development. Add as much business value in the least amount of hours.

You can be proud on what you delivered for the businesses you worked for. You solved their problems and you created value for them. No matter what the code looks like. As long as it was secure and it worked then it was perfect for what it was supposed to achieve. Don't be so hard on yourself.


👤 d--b
- mobile / desktop apps. Very frontendy but less messy than web.

- start a business yourself with your skills to build the mvp then hire people to do the front end work and move to core business work

- build the mvp for another startup and move to core business work

- do more BI stuff. BI people will hire you to make charts and shit. Then you can learn BI there.

- make fake interfaces for movies ?

- teach


👤 actionowl
> I'm not passionate about this field

What are you passionate about?

> I'm unemployed.

Now is the best time to really ask yourself what you're passionate about and how you really want to spend your finite time on earth.

> I basically want to get as far away from Node and React and CSS as possible. What's a good path out?

It's hard to give any suggestions without know what you want to get more into? Do you enjoy web development but hate what it has become? If so, you're not alone for example the NoScript extension has 1,688,456 users in the Firefox Add-on store. You can still make web applications with 0 lines of JavaScript. Just hare React? Well, jQuery didn't stop working when React was invented.


👤 muzani
When you ask for another path out, do you mean in programming or another field?

There's always lots of jobs in app development, back end, game development, AI/ML, and so on. You still have a baseline of usable skills, mainly debugging and knowing why spaghetti code is bad.

It also sounds like you've been in some bad companies with poor mentoring. You might have to move around a bit, work with a better culture, but they uh, don't hire people who aren't brilliant. It's a circular problem, but moving might help. Code Review Stack Exchange and Programmers SE are good for pointing out otherwise obvious things you have never picked up.


👤 tiborsaas
Go learn Rust (no pun intended). You can still do web stuff with it, but it will open new paradigms for you. With the stricter rules it enforces on you, your craft will level up. Not sure where to go from there though :)

To leave frontend behind, you can maybe check out database focused projects, try devops, learn graphics or the ultimate answer: try management as a team lead or product owner, I'm sure in 13 years you've seen web project from all angles.

If you have enough money left, try to relax, read some IT classic books and don't think about work for a while, you will know what to do most likely.


👤 kfk
Everything is becoming a huge database with some light interface stuck on top of it. Maybe you can apply your webdev skills in another industry. I think “ai” products will need webdev to sell and work.

👤 openlowcode
I know what you mean. While web is unavoidable in some area for the 'instant deployment' benefit it brings (in consumer internet...), it lacks in my opinion a solid architecture fundation (separation of business data and layout...), and we pay a high price for this (costly development, high cost of obsolescence...). So I prefer to avoid web development when I can.

Also, many development environments (not only web) are not keen with 'medium skill' developpers: the architecture is too complex that it is a mess just navigating around, and it requires self discipline and experience to organize your development. There should be, in my opinion, a 'safe place' for people whose job is just to transcript business requirements into working code without requiring extra 'architecture' skills. Most IT departments of companies have this 'medium skillset' population, and as a result, there is a lot of waste and drama.

With that in mind, I spent around 1 year of my private time designing a low-code framework to provide enteprise IT developers with a 'medium skillset' an efficient tool to develop business apps. This is fully open-source, so do not hesitate to have a look and get involved ( https://openlowcode.com/ )


👤 daw___
DevOps would seem the perfect path out to me. You won't have to work on code anymore, but you could still use your coding experiences when implementing deployment solutions.

👤 _benj
As a self-taught developer (although I don’t think self-taught has anything to do with it) I strongly relate to you! I’m currently a full-stack and working hard to transition away from webdev. The first (and probably hardest) thing for me was to decide what to transition towards, and that’s a question that only you can answer. If you are self-taught I’m gonna take a guess that you once had this huge curiosity and strong motivation to learn coding! You probably skipped sleep from time to time because it was such a rush learning all those cool things! One clue to decide what to transition towards could be finding again that same motivation that made you learn by yourself in the first place. As an example, I’m currently learning x86 architecture, assembly, C, kernel development, etc... because (after a few years exploring) I finally decided that I want to transition towards low level hardware programming.

Another idea about transitioning could be taking a break from development. Maybe there are other technical skills that you have or can learn (i.e. video editing, 3D design, penetration testing, etc...) that might spark that original flame or leaning and enjoying what you do.

One last thing is, take a look at the flow state. I remember reading the book “Deep Work” in a time that I was in a job that I hated and about to throw the towel and the ideas in the book completely changed my experience at work. It was still the same job but my attitude was drastically different and I started enjoying immensely what I was doing! (Still quit and got a better job... bad organizational culture is quite hard to fix)

Anyways, wish you the best in your search!!


👤 sshine
You could always try your luck with middle-out compression.

👤 ooooak
> I basically want to get as far away from Node and React and CSS as possible. What's a good path out?

.net core or spring boot?


👤 severak_cz
I understand you. I am also self-taught webdev working in small company with loooots of legacy/scary code behind us.

I somewhat lost interest in new cool frameworks/technologies and somewhat stagnated in "JQuery era".

For me, these three ideas helped:

1) have life outside work. Have some hobbbies/friends/social activities. Do not try to find meaning in work.

2) do something completely different with computers. For example - I started making computer music, coding my own VST instruments in Csound etc...

3) try new technologies in meaningful project. Not just code for code sake. For example: I am currently implementing custom point of sales system for friend who is curating gallery. In this system I have tried to use Vue.js and found it very useful.


👤 backend_founder
Leverage your experience and knowledge. Dont start from scratch.

Do some node-backend projects and working your way into a decent full time position.

OR try full stack development of react + java backend.

Jhipster sets u up with a full SAAS demo-type app with java-spring-boot, SQL, and react. You need to learn about hosting, DB, config, network issues, etc. Just getting a full app hosted and working on a free heroku server will give some starter backend experience.

If you are willing to put in the time, u can do a first backend gig by combining this with some minimal front end react work.

Where r u located?

p.s. it also sounds like you have some burn out and life issues - which may or may not be solved by better work


👤 codingdave
Can you clarify whether you are asking how to get out of web dev, but stay in tech? Or are you asking what to do with your life because you lost the passion for tech?

Because the answers to those questions are completely different.


👤 pkaye
You could try joining a company that does webdev and something else you might enjoy. Then after a little time there doing webdev, get to know those in the other teams and see if you can get a chance to work with them.

👤 csomar
This has been suggested by someone else but I'll suggest it again: Learn Rust. I was in your shoes a couple years ago, and decided I'm done with the Spaghetti. I got lured into Rust, somehow. It was the best thing that probably happened to my programming/development skills.

I've been doing some JavaScript (again) lately, and I have decided that I can only go on forward with TypeScript. Rust strict types, traits and patterns will completely change how you approach and think about code.


👤 ruicaridade
There's a chance you may get stuck with React again due to React Native and Electron if you move to mobile or desktop apps. Maybe try transitioning to Full-Stack and eventually Backend?

👤 trenchgun
Why not just fuck your demons and learn modern web dev?

👤 llarsson
You mention burnout in another comment thread here. With that often comes a feeling of powerlessness and apathy.

"Escaping webdev" is the easy part --- you just need to quit. But doing so is only a transition away from something. We need to find what you should transition toward, instead.

What are your skills that you still feel at least somewhat passionate about? And how can we turn that into a future career?


👤 perceptronas
Sounds like a problem with the code you write instead of industry. Like you are not proud of your work and it eats you.

Almost everything is connected to web nowadays(frontend and backend) and it certainly doesn't have to be as bad as you describe. I would advice to try automating as many things as possible. Especially things you don't like as there is a lot of motivation for that


👤 fourmyle
Practice Leetcode for half a year until you get good at interview questions. Scour your network for referrals to big companies. Do well on the Leetcode interview you will get. Once you get in work for about a year then say you are unhappy and transfer teams. Go to a distributed systems, ml, ai team etc.

👤 gremlinsinc
Feeling the same way, which is why I'm wanting to build some open source apps that replace as much as possible w/ db/api from db...e.g. using Hasura + React or Vue to create a SaaS framework, to re-use for multiple business ideas, maybe have a hosted version or being open core as a biz model.

👤 thrownaway954
get your cissp or oscp cert and go into the infosec sector. you make a ton of money and are basically in a managerial role so there is little hands on and zero coding.

get a cloud cert in aws, azure or google and basically do dev ops at a large scale. again... tons of money and zero web development.


👤 mkez00
I was re-invigorated a few years back after doing nothing but webdev when I was thrown into a SysOps role (on AWS primarily). Having a webdev background helped when building small applications to hack things together.

👤 catacombs
> thirteen years of beginner experience

My God. I'd love to learn more about your background. How, if you've worked in web development since 2007, consider yourself a beginner?


👤 santa_boy
Have you considered analytics? I think of it as progression and you might want to continue the web-dev work with a new hire. They make a decent story together

👤 ygggvg
Go to a smaller company. They are much slower on changing technology.

👤 staticautomatic
Back end Python web development is a joy these days.

👤 voldacar
Pick up a copy of K&R

👤 chrisgoman
Flutter

👤 theredbox
SAP,DataFlex,ERP,Cobol,SQL ETL,ColdFusion,PHP are all good options.