I don't want to be a worker any more I want to be a professional

I think on HN we suffer from something similar to people who visit Instagram or Facebook all the time. We see everyone's holiday photos, their successes, everyone is doing something "meaningful" or creating the next big startup. In reality, most of us are creating CRUD applications but we wouldn't post about that because it doesn't fit into the above category.

I don't have any answers to your questions but I hope it's some consolation, at least.

Perhaps you can give us some additional insight about your current role, industry and experience level?

The way you’re feeling is not just about your role as a computer worker but as a worker in general.

There are three ways to break out of this:

1. Play the game inside the system - work “really hard”, be “visible”, demonstrate “strategic leadership” inside some game space like BigCo, VC-backed flavor of the month. You will still likely be a cog, but with luck you might be able to influence the edges of the game.

2. Find an orthogonal vector into doing computer work - look outside the set or opportunities typically presented to you and instead look at problems you care about and whether you have an edge that lets you put together a team to go solve it. Note that this works best with at least one other person, you need someone in the trenches with you to keep morale up and even if you’re both talented at the construction and people end of things it’s better one specializes in each.

3. Organize your fellow workers - we are quite possibly the single best paid, most powerful group of workers in the history of humanity. There are efforts to collect this power so that we may actually influence the decisions that get made.

One last piece of advice, the way you feel in this moment is where anyone who has ever done anything great has started. There is no assurance whatsoever that you will achieve what you initially set out to build. But what you can control is whether you try to do something or accept the existing structures as they are.

Good luck!

I'm not sure if this will help, but I suffer from a similar feeling. The sense that I'm often a cog. That others around me don't have an interest in seeing me as a full human — and even worse, perhaps, others around me and managing me don't even see themselves as fully human either, but are merely interested in climbing the ladder or making more money; merely doing the minimum required in terms of bravery and wholeheartedness -- i.e. just being beaurocratic checkbox checkers.

The things that have helped me a lot have, paradoxically, not been changing my environment drastically, nor the people I'm around at work (I do believe that changing those things can help a lot, but understanding, knowing, or finding which professional situation or group of people that facilitate what I'm looking for can sometimes be tricky; I'm hopeful, however, about finding a better environment or group of people with time). Rather, doing things like dressing better, reading in the mornings, practicing piano, going on long walks, and doing yoga (it's important, in my experience, to do yoga with someone that feels like they have a sense of poise and setteledness is important).

When I can find a feeling of centeredness and wholeheartedness and groundedness within myself, I perceive others around me as fully human as well as myself — by fully human I mean having potential, intelligence. And that lifts others in a subtle way, I think and leads to better success for myself and mutually. Sometimes the feeling arises that in spite of the normal BS of work, that there's actually a lot of room to get good things done if I can let go of ego, let go of the sense of frustration about how bizarre things are.

The valley has changed a lot the last ten years. I'm sure you'll find your way if you try. We all need to. Despite the money and perks, more people are waking up to how bizarre things have slowly become. Remember you're not alone and things can probably get better if we try.

> Everyone around me from management to the HR apparatus and even my peers seem geared towards me remaining a non client facing worker bot

Yep, this is true. To be honest, no one cares about your career but you. I'm not saying this to be harsh, it's the same for me. But no one is going to come up and say "you're really smart, and we need you to do smart person job." I wish they would, especially for me. But it doesn't seem to happen, at least not very often. Everyone gets in their own rut, and most people can only see what they think is the status quo, even if that isn't how it is in reality. And people like the status quo. It's predictable. But usually not optimized for success or efficiency.

But the only answer I have for both of us is to figure out what we want, and make a plan, and go for it. Most if not all my important growth came from quitting one job and moving into another. Figure out something that means something to you now, and go for it. You're the only one who can know what you need to do.

I have not experienced that "endless cycle of mindless mechanical labour that has become the software business".

I am however experiencing the reality of 99% of software products being, to be polite, unnecessary. And that does bother me.

I've spent over 2 years now compromising any other consideration in the sake of building something that I see as important and useful. I've relocated, I took junior jobs, worked with tech stack I hate or know nothing about. I did some effort (not enough, yet).

And you know what? it worked :) I now work on a product I love and feel related to. I cut my salary down ~25% (I could afford that thanks to my amazing better half). I also officially work 80% and occasionally from home. That whole package really helped me to reenergize and get myself together as I was very close to declaring myself "X-software developer" and pivot to some other profession.

> it wasn't supposed to feel like work it was supposed to be a calling

Almost no job feels like this. Few people ever feel this way about what they do for money.

My advice is to reduce your hours and find something you are passionate about. Facing clients probably isn't it (which I say from experience)

The two types of people I have observed getting the sort of freedom you seek are either technically brilliant (e.g. John Carmack) or business leader/owner with a vision (e.g. Elon Musk or Steve Jobs). Anyone not in one of those two categories and blessed with a healthy dose of luck (or wealthy to begin with), well, yup, we're all worker bees.

Personally, being thoroughly mediocre myself, the best I can do is help realize somebody else's vision. I choose jobs that ship interesting products, usually for non-web stuff.

...I think a lot of this sort of feeling comes from the "builder versus creator" psychology.

A "builder" is someone who assembles furniture like from IKEA by following instructions. A "creator" is someone who envisions furniture and makes their vision come to life.

Most people get into tech because they want to be creators. Most people get disillusioned about tech because of the way that industry constrains one into the role of a builder.

become friends with ambitious sales people. The right salesman can inspire you to build something that he can sell. A good salesman tends to climb company ladders and have connections (like with VCs or with other executives). If you are friends with them and always bouncing off ideas and they land a VP of sales role somewhere they can pull you up. Or maybe you start a company with them.

That's something I look for at a company is the sales culture. connections is like the most important thing for your career if you want to move above IC. My last company's CTO was super impressed when I asked to shadow a sales call to learn more about the customers... even if it was totally my plan all along to look different than other engineers, that's the game.

Its not all about the other engineers you know.

I dont know. You may try different company. I noticed similar trend while a ago - our profession being increasingly pushed toward passive "do what I told you and shut up" position. That is however general statement and you can find places where it is different.

What I noticed is that it is better when direct leadership are people with technical background and worst when you work under non-technical leader. In first situation you are part of "us" for leader and thus more likely to be listened to or given chance. In latter you are the "other" or "different kind of person" and thus not seen as potential source of value.

Its the business response to having to need technology I believe, they've created a walled garden where the IT people can live (in what they think IT people want). The main reason is to limit the perceived need (by the IT people) and keep costs under control. If they let the IT people out then they'd just automate everything and go home, they want everything automated but under their control. Everything is about control, all the stories they tell you are to keep you under control.

I started my career in a consulting company where I was doing technical work with a lot of client interaction. I am now an engineer with very little client facing responsibilities and am much happier. There were a few problems that I experienced with client facing work. You basically have to answer to another set of managers (a.k.a the clients) in addition to your actual managers. And managing client relationships is an entirely different skill set from the technical work. So if it doesn't come naturally to you it can be down right exhausting to have to try and improve both people skills and the technical skills. Also, missing client facing deadlines is much more serious than letting internal deadlines slip, which adds to the stress.

If I ever decide to move more towards a client facing role again, I would probably do one of two things. 1) Find a role that was very light on (or eliminates) the technical work, and only focus on managing the client relationships or 2) stay technical, but go the freelance route. If you are going to have to deal with all of the stress of managing clients, you might as well get the benefit of being your own boss.

Another thing to consider, appearances matter for these types of roles. And I am not just talking about dressing slightly nicer and getting more frequent haircuts. Nice smiles, firm handshakes, height, weight, etc... If that is not something you naturally have, then you will always be at a disadvantage. It is certainly not necessary, but it will definitely help. Looking sharp is not something I am particularly pre-disposed to, So I find it rather nice that I can wear jeans and t-shirt to my software engineering job while making just as much if not more than the folks wearing the suits and ties.

There are a lot of thoughtful and insightful comments in this thread which I will look forward to reviewing with the care they deserve very grateful to each and every one even the downvoted ones which I can totally understand too

In short it's this -- corporacy held such a promise that we would be something far greater than ourselves

It's well known that an organization that designs systems is bound to design systems which mirror the communication structures within the organization

It's also known that any sufficiently large software system becomes a half baked implementation of common LISP with an email client tacked on for good measure

You can tell a lot about a company by the software it creates and vice versa

Rather than fix corporacy as a means to write the best software we're slogging along with a toxic casual mediocracy that's beginning to resemble a surveillance state policed by petty bureaucrats where initiative is punished in favour of disenfranchisement and the only way to build a career is to self deal with the bullies

They say the only thing worse than running in politics is having others do it same goes for corporations

As software and systems people we were supposed to fix the system from the inside for everyone remember people over processes agile is a disruptive paradigm and all that?

Instead we threw t-shirts at it and told it to fix itself

Somehow the tables have been turned on us and we've become the data you know what I mean I never signed up to have someone less qualified to do my thinking for me and force me into one of a few stereotyped roles while the bourgeois brats take all the profits

I signed up to commune with gods and legends like Alan Turing do you suppose he cracked the enigma just to clear the road for this shit?

If computer science stops feeling fun, maybe try something else more challenging or if that isn't appealing or financially doable maybe try mentoring or volunteering. I think volunteering and teaching kids to code reminds you of all the fun coding can be by just seeing that excitement in their faces and reminds me to feel grateful I get to solve puzzles all day.

But truly tech is massive, if one space feels robotic find another section of it that feels impossible to conquer and chip away at it and network and work your way in and enjoy the new challenge knowing it's just fun. I don't think anything can stay a "calling" but I like to hope things stay fun for me in my job, also truly if the material is fun without the people in your office it might not be the subject matter but the people you're doing the job with that are making it difficult to enjoy. So that's my two cents! Good luck, stranger!

>Everyone around me

Here's one problem. People will usually underestimate you because people who are not programmers don't understand programming. When I broke into programming, my managers at the time wanted me to do QA instead. However, in my case they weren't really paying attention and weren't technically savvy, nor did they really actually care, so I simply ignored them and worked on the programming tasks instead. This doesn't always work, but I think knowing when you can get away with breaking "the rules" is an important part of getting ahead. Looking at mega-successes like Carmack and Jobs, they also didn't play 100% by the rules all the time.

It's also important to understand when it's beneficial to the company that you break the rules. Because if you're just doing your own thing without a thought to the company's needs, that will cause trouble. But if you break the rules in a way that you bring more value to the company than your formal job description dictates, then a smart manager will let you continue to do so (and if they aren't smart, I recommend getting a new manager).

> but now the whole system is geared towards blind compliance and disengagement

This sounds to me more like a company culture problem than necessarily an industry problem. My division is in the business of breaking blind compliance and challenging assumptions both within our own division and the rest of the company. Maybe have an eye open to other opportunities?

> creating something of lasting value for the world and society and even my own legacy

This may be the most challenging bit. There's lots of value out there, but it's coming from competing value systems. So you would first need to identify what exactly this value looks like to you (Making the best educational software in the world? Operating robust communications networks within disaster areas? Building a better fundraising platform for nonprofits? Catching human traffickers with machine learning? The list is endless.) and then look for companies that are delivering that.

Well, I'm definitely comsidering this as well, and I don't have anything definitive yet for you. I do have some ideas though, and I agree that it's fucking depressing being basically a high paid grunt doing work that needs to be stimulating but often isn't.

My main ideas are 1) Working on more significant but shorter term finishable projects, at a higher level. Taking inspiration from movie directors, cinematographers, and high level architects, being more of a high level problem solver and compositor is something that seems compelling. 2) I don't have a 2 yet. Maybe doing more independent speaking or switching fields. Not sure

Find a company that values your brain and input, rather than your typing speed. This should be obvious from who you are interacting with during your interview. Is it some faceless member of HR or the guy with the button?

To me, the most important thing is to fit one's career in with one's overall purpose and goals in life. Like, to make sure the ladder of success is not leaning against the wrong wall (Covey). I've written much more including a link to the 7 habits wikipedia page (a simple site, no ads or JS): http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854588981.html , in what I hope is a very browseable/skimmable format.

The thing with computer science is that many of the big names around are old enough to have experienced the golden age of CS, when working with computers on pretty much any level was still mainly about exploration and invention. Knuth, Thompson, Kernighan, Kay, Goldberg... Extremely creative and highly intelligent people, no doubt, but they also made their bones when computers were scarce, primitive and still viewed with reverent awe.

There are few places like Xerox PARC and Bell Labs around today. Because they are few and far between and there are plenty of programmers and CS students, they can pick and choose among the very best.

Other than that, software and software development is a commodity. If you want to do something other than just coding things to spec, you have to actually put in hard work, take risks and have a fair bit of luck to boot.

What is it that you want to create? Do you have an idea? Can you monetize it? If you're in it for the fame and glory rather than money, look into FOSS. If you're looking for a managerial position, start applying for managerial jobs.

A professional do other's bidding for money, which means you don't have much say in the matter. While your smile might be fake or naive, if you seek different roles, reach out to other departments, network, you may carve a niche of opportunity for yourself. Not so merely doing other people's work.

This is exactly where your side project and/Volunteering comes in. Successful professional are not just good at their craft but at dealing with people.

Your job is to use your side projects to improve your people skills. Your side project will let you do whatever you want. So make a plan and do what you need.

What do you actually want to do? If it’s just client interaction and being able to make decisions, that can easily be found in small companies or often by becoming more senior. Personally I moved away from that back to “solving problems”, because I want to be a professional programmer, not a professional client-schmoozer or manager even if that’s what makes the big bucks.

If it’s lasting value for the world and a legacy, I’m not sure software provides that in spades. How often do you think about MySpace now Facebook is here? Altavista now Google is here? Software is pretty transient and even if you do something first, your competitors will probably be the guys that get remembered, not you and your team. Maybe that’s not what you mean though.

In my experience this is sort of a good news/bad news situation.

The good news is that feeling as you do, it often means you are self aware enough to have reached the point where you see life is just a journey, there is no end point other than death, and the meaning of life is what you put into the journey.

The bad news is that it reads like you are feeling that, so far, you've not used the time on your journey well.

That can be dangerous, as it can lead to depression, jealousy, and a whole host of emotional roller coasters before you get to the point that you realize you're actually in control of your journey[1].

You wrote "Everyone around me from management to the HR apparatus and even my peers seem geared towards me remaining a non-client facing worker bot."

Step one is to recognize your own agency in your journey.

You could resign your job tomorrow, just walk in and say "Oh hey, my last day will be Friday, could you let HR know so they can have my final paycheck ready?" That is using your agency to change the circumstances of your life. That said, I don't recommend it, since that would be jumping in without a plan and that leads to a bumpy journey with a lot of risk.

You've got the start of a plan going in this question, you write "How can I ... become the consummate professional I've always wanted to be?" (some editing there to pull out the goal statement). Spend a couple of hours with a notebook (or an open editing window) and let your thoughts flow on what would be true, how your life would look, what your job would look like, what your resume would look like, when you were this 'consummate professional.'

You might write "I would be the chief/lead engineer on the development of new products for my company." or "I would be leading a team of engineers who were working to build the next ." Etc. Remove the shackles from your brain and reality and write down anything you want, even silly things like "Elon Musk would report to me." (that being way outside the 'box' and highly unlikely but speaks to part of your life satisfaction being derived from having managerial authority over 'celebrities' as an example).

The goal of the exercise is to convert a feeling of 'want' into concrete expressible and measurable things that would address that ambition.

Once you have a list, rank them from 'things I could do in my current position' to 'things I could only do if I was a superhero.'

Start with the head of the list and work your way through it. You will want to check in with your feelings to verify it is still what you want. As with most things, you might find that you think you want something, only to find as you get closer you want something else.

At the start of every month write a note on your calendar or your refrigerator that says what you are working on this month. At the end of the month do a retro on how well you did and what you learned about what you want, how you got it (or didn't get it), and how it changed your outlook on the next step.

Since all consummate professionals have discipline, this activity will exercise those skills you need. Good luck, and remember, you get out of life what you put in.

[1] Well at least it did in me.

> Everyone around me from management to the HR apparatus and even my peers seem geared towards me remaining a non client facing worker bot content with my perks and not harboring any ambitions beyond 'solving challenging problems' as a means to elicit that dopamine rush towards the collective ego

You have a perception problem and need to find a strategy to break that. You can do it in a variety of ways from finding a new job and a clean start, to putting forth great ideas to management/peers that add value (be careful to receive credit for them most of the time).

You’ll have to be willing to take on some risk. First, define your market position. What type of professional are you and what value do you provide?

Get your own customers.

Get closer to the research side. Either of some big company or by pursuing a PhD at a university.

You still have to do your professional craft (software engineering), but the purpose will be different.

You sound like you lack purpose, not like you dislike your area of expertise.

Do you want to solve harder technical problems or transition to solving people problems?

Maybe tell your boss that you don't like your job anymore and want to do a different one. What new job would you like to do?

If you want to feel alive, you can work for a startup or try making your own company.

I think what you're really looking for is meaning. You can be a 'consummate professional' by 'solving challenging problems' in the very best way you can, but it seems like this just doesn't hold much personal meaning for you anymore. I think you can do a couple things to find meaning in your work.

First I'd suggest not thinking of your work as 'writing code'. Think of it as 'producing a product', 'helping users', 'facilitating economic and social progress'. Re-gear what you do around those ideas. It reframes what you're doing from just 'mindless mechanical labor' to actually improving someone's life, or enhancing the value of some part of society. If you don't feel like your work is doing that, either change how you do your work, or do some other work.

You can focus more on performing the task at hand at the highest level you can. This might involve going back to school, attending conferences/seminar on your subject, compiling lists of inefficiencies with your current work methods, trying to figure out how to work around problems in your current workflows or methods and how to solve them in really beautiful, simple ways.

You can look past the task at hand, and look at what it's being used for. What's the end goal? What can you contribute to that has to do with that? It might be a deeper understanding of how someone uses what you create, finding out problems or inefficiencies in those use cases, and working on how to solve those from your position.

You can also work on things outside your immediate purview that relate to either the task at hand or ultimate goal. Maybe there's something in the SDLC that's inefficient or creating unnecessary problems. Maybe there's outside groups that have inefficiencies. Maybe there's communication problems, process problems, business problems. What is really involved in the entire value chain of this thing you're working on? How can you contribute, even if it means not working on code? How can you improve the whole process, the whole business?

And you can think bigger. How is society impacted by this thing you're working on? What changes could you make at a level outside your organization that would help? Can you get engaged in civil organizations? Can you work directly with communities that have to do with this product? Can you organize a PAC of some sort?

Last thing I'd add is to beware a mindset of trying to 'change the world' or 'fix big problems'. I think these are negative perspectives, because they assume the world needs changing, or that things are broken. People that get passionate about an idea often drift toward a more extreme position than is realistic. I've gained a lot more from the perspective of "nothing is or ever will be perfect, but I can try to constantly improve things over time and help people". Often this is just improving tiny little things one at a time, or teaching by example. Cumulatively, it does change the world, but without big expectations, assumptions or implications hung on it.

have you tried freelancing ? customer-supplier relationship is very different from employer/employee. it’s hard at first because you have to negociate a deal, but it gives a lot of freedom.

Professions are practiced

"What is my purpose".

"You pass butter".

Welcome to the real world. It beats you down and keeps you down. But the key is to keep going on. Stick to the sisyphean task of rolling the rock back up the mountain.

It sounds like you are burnt out or having a midlife crisis, so good luck finding whatever it is you are looking for.

Subscribe to a post-capitalism world.

lol