Both Berlin and Toronto seem to have some tech scene going on. Cost of living in Toronto is quite high compared to Berlin. It seems it'll be easier to save money in Berlin to work towards financial independence.
On the other hand, tech companies in Canada pay peanuts and the high cost of living leaves quite a small amount to save each month. However, once a Canadian citizen, there is a possiblity to get transferred to a Silicon Valley arm of a US company from Canada (using the TN visa) and hence receive a higher compensation.
How would you compare between the two countries for building a career in tech for an immigrant?
This is because:
- Canadians are happy to accept whatever wages they are given (the "smart" Canadians move to the US to get higher salaries)
- immigrants to Canada are happy to accept whatever wages they are given
With those two factors, you're not going to make a lot of money in Toronto unless you're working a US company (Google, Amazon, and so on) and even then it'll be less than US counter-parts.
Berlin is a better choice because you can easily travel around Europe and there are more markets. It's also a faster flight back to India if you're visiting family.
>However, once a Canadian citizen, there is a possiblity to get transferred to a Silicon Valley arm of a US company from Canada (using the TN visa) and hence receive a higher compensation.
This is what I'm talking about. The employer will dangle this prize in front of you for as long as they can and will continue to hold off on promotions and keep your salary the same for as long as possible. This is why Canadian salaries remain low, because there will be another sucker that comes along and will also be offered the same "we'll give you a promotion in a few years!" or "we'll transfer you to the US soon! very very soon!" line and they'll accept it.
>How would you compare between the two countries for building a career in tech for an immigrant?
Is immigration required? Because if not, all you need is a good internet connection, a good computer, and knowledge lots and lots of knowledge to distinguish your skills from others and get the higher freelancing rates.
I think it's hard to compare two countries like this. There's a lot more than just the objective differences--it's easy to be miserable in an objectively "better" country.
I am absolutely miserable in Germany. I don't have a particularly good reason to be; I just hate it. It simply disagrees with me, even though--objectively--Germany is a better place to live than many of the other countries I lived in.
My advice is apply for jobs in both countries. Get on-site interviews, and go to Toronto and Berlin. It's important that you see for yourself, so you can really make an informed decision.
The bit you wrote about transferring to Silicon valley, etc seems premature to me. You don't really know what you'll be doing in the future: neither choice here is bad. Choose which seems the best now, unless you have a specific, realistic goal for the future that one option enables better than the other. But without that: go to both cities and just see what you like.
Comparing salaries is also premature: you don't even have offers yet. It's all just conjecture. If both cities are serious contenders for you, apply to jobs in both and see.
(Besides, German CS salaries are definitely nothing to write home about either. And many things in Germany are more expensive: cars, gas, electricity, basically all consumer goods, etc)
Some random thoughts and musings that might not matter to you:
- All in all, having made the switch from a rather high paying (by German standards) job for a DAX30 company to a Silicon Valley-based US employer in Canada, my gross pay decreased but my take home increased due to significantly lower taxes in Canada. After all taxes and deductions my take home pay in Germany was about 51% of gross, in Canada it is about 67%. On the bottom line I come out about equal due to significantly higher cost of living in Canada, especially Toronto. My groceries spend is factor 2.5, my rent spend is factor 4.5, internet at home is factor 2, cell phone is factor 3 compared to Germany. Pretty much everything but clothes is much more expensive in Canada.
- Also the availability of things through online shops or stores is very different. In Germany we have Services such as Geizhals.de which allows you to compare prices on very specific items across hundreds of online stores. Amazon is usually not the cheapest or best option. In Canada, Amazon is usually the only option. Or ordering from the US and paying duties and fees. This is especially true if you into crafty or electrical engineering things (parts and materials).
- As a visible minority Berlin is going to be fine (if not great!). Other parts of Germany might be less pleasant. I believe physically you'd be safer in Berlin that you'd be in Toronto due to overall significantly lower gun violence.
- Depending on how the US administration goes the TN visa might not be a long term option. It certainly isn't, even today, if you plan to stay in the US long term.
- Banking in the US and Canada are horrible when compared to the EU. Also: The German credit score system is basically the inverse of the US/Canadian system. Nothing on your file == good.
- I personally like winters. Toronto gets lots of snow, Berlin I find to be exceptionally cold and damp during winters but rarely it gets snow. I prefer snow over dampness.
- 24 days of paid leave is the legal minimum for a full time position at 6 days per week, 20 days if you work 5 days a week in Germany. That will vary wildly in the US and Canada.
And many more things I haven't got the time right now to list. But if you're interested I can go on.
My permanent residency was super straightforward. My PhD is from a US institution. I have a long research career and a very long software development professional resume, and it still took three years.
Be aware that the TN work permit can have a serious downside: it’s so easy and simple and straightforward to get for Canadian citizens that many employers will stonewall or simply not consider going the green card route. That’s what happened to me many years ago even before the current immigration insanity, which will likely make things worse for you.
In general Canadians have to go to the H1 B route. It is vaguely possible to apply for a green card while under a TN work permit, but because of the way the rules are interpreted by USCIS, most immigration lawyers with experience in the matter strongly strongly strongly advise against it.
Don't forget that you want to visit your family in India. I think in Germany you typically get more vacation. Also consider the flight time. Berlin is much closer to India than Toronto.
An interesting non-standard choice for a country to immigrate to is Japan. Tokyo is a fun place with lots of foreigners. Applying for a visa is quick and reasonable, which is the complete opposite of US.
I found that after you have a certain amount in your bank account, you become one of those annoying rich people who tell others that money doesn't give you happiness and there other important things in life.
The startup scene is great! Monzo, GoCardless, OakNorthAI etc are some startups that are doing well.
You'll get PR in five years and citizenship in 6. If you are in a Big N you can ask to be transferred to the American office if you want to after 18 months.
There will be plenty of flights to India and if you fly via the Middle East they will be really cheap flights. As someone(Indian) who lived there for a bit, I had so many people visit me! You will find Indian food easily and will easily make friends.
Berlin is a life changing city, once you are there you may see life differently. You may end up getting a small programming job then being a DJ in evenings. You cannot go to Berlin with a plan, Berlin will re-planify you. While the tech scene is going up (specially during recent years because of blockchain startups) access to money and VCs are far limited. On top of that although English is ok in Berlin but if don't speak German, competing with local people is hard.
From what I can see, salaries are diverse. It is possible make decent money even in Berlin. English is usually not a problem in Berlin. In some companies English is default. Knowing a bit of German helps of course.
Consider Hamburg too, salaries are better there and it is more secure.
Canada is a great place to immigrate too, I would also explore Montreal, it has more of a research/AI/gaming scene but the cost of living is lower than Toronto. Don't know about the salaries, I would investigate!
Peanuts for a pay + add miserable winter weather.
That said Canadian passport is high quality and so far TN-to-Green card is ~2yrs process. Took me 1.5 yrs.
Better than US passport in some aspects - especially that US passport is essentially a way for IRS to keep you tax hostage no matter where you are.
Can't say about Germany - likely will be some good comments here
I wanted to live in a western country and command a higher salary. US was a no-go because of obvious visa issues, so went to the closest place which was Canada. I've been employed here for 5 years now, and definitely earned and saved a lot more than I used to back in India. But, as the years went by, I the downsides of living here started taking a toll like the brutal weather and lack of interesting opportunities. I continued traveling to India to visit family and was updated with the tech there. I now realize the job market in India has grown significantly and given the cost of living, you could effectively save the same amount at a good senior-level job position in Bangalore, Hyderabad etc. I have friends there who save more than I do in Toronto on a 200k CAD salary, with equivalent quality of life.
Sure, I could apply for citizenship, then go to the US on a TN but that's not going to make things easy either. For financial independence, what matters most to me are two things: absolute amount of money I can save/invest TODAY; and my physical health so that once I retire early I'm still in good health to do the things I want to. I could work in Silicon Valley, but if I lived a good healthy (mental and physical) life the amount of money saved will drop. I'd have to live like a miser given the CoL, something I'm not willing to do. I can live frugal but not like a miser. I must also mention that I'm married now and planning kids in the next year or two. The cost of childcare will significantly affect my CoL if continued in Canada. This may not apply to you now, but could in the future. One more point: most of our vacation days are spent in traveling to India visiting family and we haven't actually had a vacation in 4 years.
I feel the tech scene in India is really booming and lots of interesting startups are coming up in Bangalore, Pune. Companies like Amazon are also expanding operations and hiring massively in Hyderabad while paying well.
I have already done the calculations and given my current offer in Hyderabad, it'll take me about 6-7 years to retire and 10-12 years if done in Canada.
If possible, I recommend you take a trip to both cities and see what you like more. Spend a week in each, and maybe try to go to Toronto in the winter to see if you like it. Berlin has mild winters and doesn't get much snow, but Toronto can have harsh winters. Summers in Toronto can be hot and humid, which you might be used to already (since you said you're from India).
The biggest advantage to Toronto over Germany is the proximity to major US cities. Like it or not, most of the "tech innovation" is centred in the US.
Also don't count on the TN (which is not a visa, btw) sticking around forever. If your main reason for going to Canada is border mobility, you're probably better off staying in Europe. An EU citizen can live and work anywhere in the EU. Canada and the US have a close relationship, but NAFTA (which is where the TN comes from) could be gutted whenever the politicians decide that's what will get them reelected.
All things considered, if I were in your position (knowing what I know) I'd go to Berlin. It's more trendy, has better public transit, milder weather, and Europe has much more culture to explore and learn about than Canada (sorry).
Canadian citizenship takes 4 years from landing. Although they are speeding up the citizenship process so you might be able to do it in 3.5 years. I became Canadian this year and I've been here for 4 years.
> "tech companies in Canada pay peanuts"
Anecdotally better wages than anywhere in the EU I've found.
As a Canadian immigrant, I'd rather people don't come to Canada and get citizenship as a shortcut to go to another country.
I love my country, but high taxes, housing bubble, stagnant salaries, horrible choices when it comes to political candidates...
I will say the healthcare is great, and the people are generally awesome (to a lesser degree in Toronto though).
IMO, the only downsides are that it's substantially less multicultural than Toronto or Ottawa (which is a high bar to meet, tbh), and you'll sometimes miss out on things if you don't know French (though you can get by with English).
3 years on a permanent resident visa in Canada gives you the citizenship and a passport that opens up a lot of opportunities. No other country in the world comes even close to this, Germany included. Canada is also a very nice and comfortable country, so you may just as well end up staying despite the pay being higher elsewhere.
In the 1990's and early 2000's, everyone wanted to be an investment banker or a consultant. Its only been the last 7 years or so that the salaries in Technology sector have risen so much. Perhaps over the next decade, software development will stop paying as much (especially on the variable comp as companies phase out equity compensation ro general masses).
I would choose my career based on what I like to do and the quality of life I want to pursue. A lot of that comes down to the cultural integration, especially as an immigrant. What value system do you associate yourself with?
Go to Germany.
They're foreigner friendly, immigration is straightforward albeit bureaucracy sucks. Quality of life is head and shoulders above. Food is better. People are nicer. Employers don't dick you around. Housing is cheap.
So you pay California-style cost of living without the California salary.
I like living here and I like my job, but I wouldnt recommend it to somebody starting out.
Tech scene is smaller, of course, but there's lots going on. I can definitely recommend living here, especially if you're into art or music.
That's not to say that Berlin or Germany are anti-immigrant or that you'll face hostility, but more that you will have a more difficult time integrating into the culture. Even someone from a culturally similar country like Belgium or the Netherlands will never be regarded as a "German", even if he/she lives in Germany for decades. This isn't the case in the U.S. or Canada, or in a lesser sense, London.
According to this, salaries for software engineers are about the same in Berlin and Toronto (about 0.55 of Silicon Valley salaries).
Though as an Australian living in Canada and running a business here, I hope you would stay and reward the country that accepts you as a PR.
After having lived in the UK and also seen my countries hostility towards migration, it was a breath of fresh air to see how progressive the Canadian immigration process is.
Salaries are the same. Huge Indian community in Toronto from all Indian provinces so that may factor in. As someone who lives in Toronto Germany sounds like more fun.
No matter where you choose you'll be fine. But if US is the goal go to Canada.
Been trying to relocate to Canada for a few years now with no success.
Things that appeal to me are: Lots of tech jobs. Foreigner friendly population. Indian community (I am of Indian origin). Low crime rates.
If there is anyone in Canada looking for a fine developer, please give me a shout!
I speak, read and write semi-fluent German. This didn't really help me in my work life, as everyone wanted to speak English, however obviously helped in everyday life. My doctor, for example, oddly, spoke no English at all. Nevertheless I am sure I could have transferred to another doctor.
I found it was very useful to read contracts in German. If you don't do certain things, then things can get quite expensive. For example, if you don't have personal liability insurance and you lose your flat key, it can cost you 1,500 euros [1]. However I wouldn't let that discourage people. It just pays to ask for advice for colleagues on what you should be doing.
Public transport in Berlin is great, and you can get anywhere in the city within about 40 minutes. This is useful for socialising after work. There are a LOT of talks and conferences that happen in Berlin.
However as a lot of people are transitory, moving in and out of the city, I found it difficult making more longer-term relationships. I don't think Berlin is unique in that regards, rather I think it is a trait shared by other large cities. I think it can be reinforcing: people are reluctant to invest in deep relationships as people move so often, and people move when they haven't formed relationships.
At times Berlin felt a bit like living on an island, as it is far away from clusters of other major cities in Germany. Deutsche Bahn did open a new line between Berlin and Munich, however, so now you can go to Oktoberfest in 4 hours.
German industry is also more located in West Germany, rather than the East. However what I did see was the big companies opening up subsidiaries in Berlin. There is a positive feedback loop: there are developers in Berlin, so more companies open, which brings in more developers.
The climate was more extreme than England's mild maritime climate. Very much warmer and more humid summers and a longer, colder, winter. However you also get Gluehwein and winter markets.
I enjoyed the experience living there. If I were to do it again, I would pay to live in a furnished apartment for my whole stay, instead of going the local route of finding an apartment, then having to furnish it (this can also be a nightmare if it doesn't have a built-in kitchen, which a lot don't!). This can be significantly more expensive, however. Berlin is not that cheap any more.
As an immigrant, I bought a furnished apartment with a 3 month let from a specialist company (who obviously charge a premium). This allowed me to get my official German papers, such as a SCHUFA check (a piece of paper that says you don't have any debt) that allowed me to rent a "real" place. In the 3 months I could also get the bank account, town registration, etc. documents you also need.
However, as I mentioned, if I were to do it again, I would have probably just tried to pay a premium to get a furnished place, longer term. Jon Worth's Euroblog was one of the useful things I read regarding renting a flat in Berlin [2].
[1] https://www.finanzen.de/news/15102/schluessel-verloren-eine-... [2] https://jonworth.eu/how-to-find-a-flat-in-berlin/
Berlin has an amazing cultural scene. If you care about things like art, music, theatre — then Berlin will never, ever bore you. Also if you like bars! And South-East Asian food!
The tech scene in Berlin is very startup-focused, and the pay is not great. There are people who move to Berlin to make money, and there’s a lot of money to be made, but those people don’t have 9-to-5 jobs slinging code. You will be ludicrously underpaid compared to Frankfurt, much less London, much less San Francisco — but aside from the high rents, which can be really tough and require a lot of flexibility which you hopefully have at 25, you will have a very high quality of life.
Berlin is also a working-class city behind the vibrant cultural scene. If you like that, and you learn German, you can easily make friends from the “real Germany” or you can hang out with hipsters all the time if you prefer that. Berlin has both.
As others have noted, immigration is very straightforward, but you do need a lawyer and (obviously) a job offer. The path to citizenship is also straightforward.
Interestingly, there aren’t that many Indians in Berlin, or at least I would say I see more Indians on the street in Budapest than in Berlin, and I would probably have expected the opposite. There’s probably an “Indian scene” in Berlin but there definitely isn’t good Indian food. In Berlin the “Asians” are mostly from Vietnam.
One thing you should think seriously about if you’re looking at settling in Germany is Munich. Munich is where the higher-paying tech jobs are. Less startup culture, more good old fashioned German profit-making actual legitimate business culture. Google, Apple, Microsoft — these companies have a much bigger presence in Munich than in Berlin.
There is still quite a bit of specialization in German cities. Publishing? Hamburg. Finance? Frankfurt. Cars? Munich, or Stuttgart and environs. Basically if you want to live a dynamic and interesting and vibrant life, and are cool with making less money, go to Berlin. If you want more stability and professionalism go somewhere else. And it’s really easy to travel around Germany by train, plane or automobile, so you can always start in one place and explore others. Check out Darmstadt for example! Amazing art museum! Very very serious tech research scene! Minutes from Frankfurt!
Another thing to consider is that German employment culture revolves around stability. There are lots of opportunities to do weird risky things, but in principle almost everybody thinks the best way to live is to have a good job, do your work, and by the time you’re 30 you have a pretty good idea what your life will be like when you retire at 67. If that’s attractive to you, you’ll probably really love Germany.
And as long as you’re in Berlin or Munich or Hamburg you don’t have to eat German food! :-)
Finally, one thing I think German “tech” doesn’t get enough credit for: there is a lot of very serious engineering done in Germany but it’s not the “Uber for X” variety — it’s mostly based around existing, real-world technical challenges, usually involving physical machines of some kind. If things like self-driving cars or factory automation or building a better hammer attract you more than “Social network for cats” then you’ll probably really like German engineering culture.
- life cost is hiking up due to rent prices and a lot of people moving, rest is kind of cheap
- salaries vs. life cost is good, not as good as the US
- Germany is an overall good country, better than canada, but only if you want to adapt to their culture. Remember that outside of work, people generally speak german and act as a german.
- Hard to make friends here, but good if you are a bit antisocial or is married
- There is a lot of socialism here, like, if you have a kid, you get money and childcare is free(but hard to find). Medicine cost also very cheap. I'm more libertarian/capitalist and find it annoying, but everything works well so I can't complain much.
- Get some insurances, for personal liability and for your place
- Finding an apartment can be hard: get a temporary furbished apartment first, live there for like 6 months meanwhile you look for a permanent place. This can be annoying, but once you are done with that, it is great!
- Learn german. Try to start learning from when you move in, because you will need it. Also, if you start learning early and constantly, you will be progressing. German is a very hard language to learn and you will need a lot of time to become fluent on it as you will be working full time. I've been learning little by little, while working full time and it is hard. But rewarding.
- Taxes are high but if you don't spend a lot you can save some money, disposable income is great.
- Parks are great
- Germans on average are much smarter than Americans or Canadians, they are more aware of what is going on. For me it's a big point as most Americans really lack even basic knowledge about geography and history, or philosophy. Even very successful/rich people in America are quite illiterate and I like talking with smart people.
- Meat in Germany is pretty bad and expensive, I became vegetarian a few years after I've moved here and don't regret it at all. I remember I would spend like 20 euro to get meat that I would consider "bad" with my Brazilian standards.
- Berlin has a lot of foreigners with different cultures, you will be able to learn from everyone something. I think on Canada you might not be able to have the same experience. I don't know how much you care about that.
I would rather live in Berlin than in Canada. Better than Berlin is possibly only the US, but the working permit there sucks(H1B). Here in Germany it is pretty good, even my wife can work. If you wanna come and live here for a long time(maybe forever or until you are retired, it is a good country).
I think if you don't wanna come to stick with it for a few decades, I think an english speaking country is better. People keep mentioning life cost(which is Berlin wins by a wide margin in comparison to Canada), but I think that culture and the mindset is also important. Please make sure you know that germans do not think like the canadians, no matter how international Berlin is, the overall mood is set by the germans. If you don't want to embrace their culture, you might have a hard time.
As a "visible minority", life in Toronto and Vancouver is less stressful than it is in USA or Edmonton. Also your dating life will be better in Toronto. If you plan to have a family and kids, you don't have to worry about school shootings -- this is now a thing parents worry about in USA. Your parents can visit you and getting a visitor visa is not a pain.
Of course taxes are higher and take home pay is lower than in USA and the rent is too damm high. But somehow your quality of life will be better here. People are more chill here than in USA (my experience is limited to NY/NJ) and I will bet you already have someone you know who has relative living in Canada. So loneliness will not be an issue.
Also, you can start your own business as soon as you get permanent residency. in USA, a green card could take upto 12 years. In Canada , you will get it in 3 years at most. And when you start contracting as an independent , you will make a whole lot more.
I have never been to Berlin but I hope to visit it one day. I have German friends and they are wonderful people.